[fitzcoyote]

Greetings all,
This is my first post, and I am desparetly trying to help my fiance get free and clear of all of his drugs related to his IV heroin use. Unfortunately, we are doing this alone as he can not go to a clinic or rehab or he will go to jail. He has been detoxed more times that I would like to count, and finally was clean for 10 years, then started up again less than a year ago with pills, methadone and finally IV use again. So, now, it is all out in the open, and I am going to try this once doing it myself and being in controll of the methadone (not being an addict of any kind myself). I know this is not the optimum way to do this...trust me... I am the daughter of an addict, who still is on 15 mg of methadone daily and probably will be for life.... BUT...I have to work with what I got...and now I need help and guidance. We have started on 40mg methadone daily... but, he is not sleeping and last night he wanted xanax, which I would not give him until the morning, and then only 1/2 a stick for the day. So his plan is to do 4 days of 40mg and then 4 days of 30mg etc. To me, that sounds like to big of a drop to be successful, and also, I want to know what over the counter things he should be on to help him..calcium etc... Please help...I know this is not a great situation but I need to try it this way first....
always pondering~~

[Username removed at request of user]

Im not one to tell you on how to dose the methadone but you asked about over the counter things..You can get some Velerian Root capsules from wal-mart and they will help with the anxiety, Immodium for the bathroom troubles.. I have heard not to take benedryl products(like tylenol PM for rest) because that will make the RLS worse.. and the Velerian root will help with rest. drink plenty of fluids and exercise even if its just a walk around the block.. Robert will be around Im sure to help you with the dosing of the methadone, He has helped many and is an angel to most of us recovering ..try to make him eat something if he can, drnk things like gatorade or powerade for the electrolytes he will be loosing from going to the bathroom alot.. I hope this helps a little and God Bless and continue to post there are plenty here who can help..

[fitzcoyote]

thanks so much....on my way to vote and then the store!!!!
always pondering~

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

Greetings all,
This is my first post, and I am desparetly trying to help my fiance get free and clear of all of his drugs related to his IV heroin use. Unfortunately, we are doing this alone as he can not go to a clinic or rehab or he will go to jail. He has been detoxed more times that I would like to count, and finally was clean for 10 years, then started up again less than a year ago with pills, methadone and finally IV use again. So, now, it is all out in the open, and I am going to try this once doing it myself and being in controll of the methadone (not being an addict of any kind myself). I know this is not the optimum way to do this...trust me... I am the daughter of an addict, who still is on 15 mg of methadone daily and probably will be for life.... BUT...I have to work with what I got...and now I need help and guidance. We have started on 40mg methadone daily... but, he is not sleeping and last night he wanted xanax, which I would not give him until the morning, and then only 1/2 a stick for the day. So his plan is to do 4 days of 40mg and then 4 days of 30mg etc. To me, that sounds like to big of a drop to be successful, and also, I want to know what over the counter things he should be on to help him..calcium etc... Please help...I know this is not a great situation but I need to try it this way first....
always pondering~~

We will try to help you anyway we can. First of all let me emphasize the dangers of using the methadone and taking xanax bars at the same time. Benzos of any kind and methadone are a potential time bomb for respiratory depression. I mean lets face it. He did this to himself. Not like he didn't know what he was doing. For what my opinion is worth to you DON'T give him xanax with methadone. Doesn't matter if he is miserable or not. It's NOT worth the potential risk. I'm have no doubt that someone will come along shortly and say," HEY DUDE..... I take xanax and methadone and it's cool. It's ok dude. " Well good for them ... they lucked out. Don't do it.

Next you are correct about the reduction in doses that you described being too quick of a drop. The rule of thumb is about a 10% drop at a time per month. Granted that might be a little slower than what he can tolerate, but the way you were talking about him doing it will likely set him up for failure. If it's too hard he will blow it off. At least that is my experience. Even if you have him reduce by 15% every two weeks. That would be a pretty good reduction and something he could live with. It's ok if this takes a little longer so long as he is successful. That is what counts. So if he is at 40mg have him reduce by 5-8mg and that is it. Give it a couple weeks and drop another 5mg. Reduce by an amount that equals about 15% of whatever his entire dose is at that time. It just makes more sense to me to do a plan that he has some chance of being successful at. IF he drops like you talked about he will be in bad w/d guarantee you. Let us know what we can do to help. Good luck and God bless.

PS ... NeedAMiracle gave you some good suggestions on things you can buy to help with some of the symptoms. Immodium, gatorade, valerian root, they all will help some. Hot baths and hot showers also help some with the restlessness. As soon as he is able taking a walk around the block helps big time getting his endorphine production up and running. Moderate exercise is one of the very best things he can do...not run a mile, just go for a walk.

[fitzcoyote]

First, thank you for your input... I will stop the xanax asap, what I am giving him is less than half a bar and only at night, he takes the methadone dosage in the morning and at lunch.... Also, he has not been taking methadone for that long, this has been an off and on short term probablem with him alternating between dope and methadone for less than a year. He seems to think that because he has not been on a long term methadone plan that he will be able to kick quicker than the months that you were talking about. I tend to not believe that he will be clean in a month or so...as nice as that would be! He is basing what we are doing on detox programs he has done in the past, one which worked the best for him and he walked out of the hospital at the end (I am not sure how long, but not months...more like a week to ten days) clean and drug free and remained that way for 10 years.

He says that once he can get free of being sick, he will be ok... it is the getting sick that makes him use...I would love to believe this too, but I have been lied to before and have a gaurded optimism for this statement as well!!

The first time he tried to stop using and get withdrawl free by letting himself down off the methadone, he was trying to do it himself, I was unaware, he says he almost made it, but ran out of the juice too soon....and got the crazies...I hate to sound naieve, but I think with some support, he knows himself and his addiction well enough that as long as he is honest with me, that I can help him...although he has this one chance to get clean and then I will support him as long as he is making the effort to live a healthy life...

Thank you so much for this outlet, it is refreshing to not have to defend myself and be able to ask the important questions without anyone asking how I can be so in love with a dope fiend!
Still listening and always pondering~~

[Robert_325]

Saying you will stop the xanax with the methadone ASAP concerns me. He doesn't need ANY part of a xanax bar. Don't think you understand. But that is your decision. I have done my part.

I hope that you never have the experience that I have had where one of my oldest and dearest friends stopped breathing because of xanax and methadone use together. He swallowed his tongue and nearly chewed my fingers off while I was trying to pull his tongue out of his throat waiting for the ambulance to arrive. Unfortunately they didn't arrive in time. I live with that memory every day.

Remember what I am saying. The memory never goes away. Hope it doesn't happen to you too. It sucks having someone you care about dying in your lap and it all could have been prevented with a little common sense. He needs to deal with his detox like a big boy without putting his life on the line because he doesn't like the w/d symptoms. Good luck and God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

oh no, i got it...NO more xanax at all... ever...
always pondering~

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

oh no, i got it...NO more xanax at all... ever...
always pondering~

I was not trying to be dramatic. I am glad you see that. I just wanted to emphasize what could happen. Best of luck with your fiancee. God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

Do you think suboxone is a better route? He is not great on the 40mg of methadone, although it has only been four days at 40... I want to wait to drop him to 35 another day or two even more as you said... my understanding of subox is minimal and I think it sounds like a better gig because the pill form is so much easier to get a percise dosage...

plus, we are trying to do this under the radar of family and work and it seems like the subox might be more effective at helping him get along at work

What do you think?
Always pondering~

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

Do you think suboxone is a better route? He is not great on the 40mg of methadone, although it has only been four days at 40... I want to wait to drop him to 35 another day or two even more as you said... my understanding of subox is minimal and I think it sounds like a better gig because the pill form is so much easier to get a percise dosage...

plus, we are trying to do this under the radar of family and work and it seems like the subox might be more effective at helping him get along at work

What do you think?
Always pondering~

I think that suboxone would be a great alternative. You said that he had ten years clean and its only been the last year that he has been blowing it. I think suboxone makes more sense actually than methadone in this situation.

He needs to taper down to a maximum of 30mg of methadone to make the switch. Then he needs to be free of the methadone for at least a couple days, maybe three or the drug called naloxone that is a part of suboxone will put him into precipitated w/d which are worse than anything he is going through now. There are tons of success stories on this forum of people using suboxone. I am one of them myself. It saved me.

I suggest you go to www.suboxone.com. Do some reading. Read on this forum too as there are suboxone threads everywhere. At the suboxone web site I just listed you can enter your zip code and all the local drs in your area who are certified to prescribe suboxone will be listed. Ask if you have any questions after reading.

I will be more than happy to help you guys do the suboxone thing. I believe it would be so much easier for him this way too. He could start the suboxone and be off within 60 days opiate free. Suboxone is similar to methadone in that they are both opiate replacements. But suboxone is a much better drug to use for a short term detox. Methadone is a lifestyle more than a detox med, it should be used when we are planning on taking it for a LONG time or permanently. Let me know if you would like my help. I'm here every day. God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

Robert~
I have been reading up on the suboxone... some here and some on the subox website...sounds like you have had great success if people follow your master plan and are honest with you about dosage and how they feel! I have taken a bunch of notes so that when I talk to him about it tonight, I can give him a real plan...what is good about this is that we have enough methadone to get him down to 30 with no problem, even 20 if you think it is better to go as low as we can with the methadone before starting subox... If he has me to help him stick to your dosage plan I know he can do it, if I catch any drift he is not with me on this, not giving 100% I (for myself) will cut this off...I know you are busy, and don't want to waste not only my time, but certainly not yours! He is so afraid of being sick, I think it is why he clings a little to the methadone.

Is it super expensive though? We have a bunch of local doctors around but no insurance...I was thinking it might behoove our situation if we actually had one of those ********************py doctors that over prescribe so that we wouldn't have to pay all of the office visits... I am going to go over this all with him tonight...and will catch up here as soon as I can....
thanks,
Still pondering and always listening

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

Robert~
I have been reading up on the suboxone... some here and some on the subox website...sounds like you have had great success if people follow your master plan and are honest with you about dosage and how they feel! I have taken a bunch of notes so that when I talk to him about it tonight, I can give him a real plan...what is good about this is that we have enough methadone to get him down to 30 with no problem, even 20 if you think it is better to go as low as we can with the methadone before starting subox... If he has me to help him stick to your dosage plan I know he can do it, if I catch any drift he is not with me on this, not giving 100% I (for myself) will cut this off...I know you are busy, and don't want to waste not only my time, but certainly not yours! He is so afraid of being sick, I think it is why he clings a little to the methadone.

Is it super expensive though? We have a bunch of local doctors around but no insurance...I was thinking it might behoove our situation if we actually had one of those ********************py doctors that over prescribe so that we wouldn't have to pay all of the office visits... I am going to go over this all with him tonight...and will catch up here as soon as I can....
thanks,
Still pondering and always listening

Only bad thing about suboxone is that it is more expensive than methadone which is relatively inexpensive. But I really believe he would do better. There would be NO w/d symptoms once the switch is made, only during the period of getting the methadone out of his system for 2-3 days. Then he would never have anymore w/d at all. So it makes it so much easier to do.

You are right about getting a dr who prescribes a lot of meds. You could actually ask them on the phone how they do it. Make up a story as to why you are asking. You might luck out and find a nutcase who will prescribe 3-4 times as much as you need and save some money on office calls. The meds are rather expensive too though. Like about $8.50 a pill is the average at least in my part of the country. I would assume its similar everywhere. But compare that to the cost of getting high and it isn't that outrageous.

There is no reason to drop the methadone to 20mg. If he will just titrate down to 30mg he will be ready. I think this would be a blessing for both of you. Let me know what you want to do. God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

Hi there,
So we are going to get hime down to 30mg of methadone...today he started on 35mg...and yesterday he waited all day to take his last 40 dose.


I am going to call some doctors today and see what their plan is for subox. He wants to wait to get way down on the methadone until getting the subox, he says his cravings will be worse then and the subox will be better for him then. I don't know how to respond to this because I am flying a little blind here as to why he wants to wait... I don't know if it is a money thing or if he does not want to go through a doctor or if he is worried he won't be able to find enough on the street to do it...

I think it is better for him if I find options and present them to him...in some ways I feel like I am babying him...but he also has the fear of the gods that I am going to leave him...maybe that is a good thing

I did tell him about how you tapered off some pt. I saw here...and he seemed to be relieved that I could talk with him on a level of understanding and with some sort of plan

So, for now, we are still going to continue on dropping the methadone dosage and keep doing so until we get suboxone... if we can get it sooner reasonabley we will start sooner...and I will need help with dosage etc!

As for other medical things, I have been feeding him like a horse, his marks are slowly starting to heal up and he is taking a major vitamin dose daily and has a physical job so that he is moving around. He has been able to go to the bathroom, but I did get laxative..he doesn't have the diarreah, he is constipated...I keep giving him water and fiber as well! Sleeping is not so great for him, he drinks a organic kavakava tea at night, I do think it helps him to relax...what should he take OTC for normal back pains (which he is feeling now again since he is not high!) advil?

ok, have to go to work now....paperwork calls!!
thanks to all, Robert for advice and the rest of you for being able to read your stories, may the force be with~
always pondering and vehmenetly listening

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

Hi there,
So we are going to get hime down to 30mg of methadone...today he started on 35mg...and yesterday he waited all day to take his last 40 dose.


I am going to call some doctors today and see what their plan is for subox. He wants to wait to get way down on the methadone until getting the subox, he says his cravings will be worse then and the subox will be better for him then. I don't know how to respond to this because I am flying a little blind here as to why he wants to wait... I don't know if it is a money thing or if he does not want to go through a doctor or if he is worried he won't be able to find enough on the street to do it...

I think it is better for him if I find options and present them to him...in some ways I feel like I am babying him...but he also has the fear of the gods that I am going to leave him...maybe that is a good thing

I did tell him about how you tapered off some pt. I saw here...and he seemed to be relieved that I could talk with him on a level of understanding and with some sort of plan

So, for now, we are still going to continue on dropping the methadone dosage and keep doing so until we get suboxone... if we can get it sooner reasonabley we will start sooner...and I will need help with dosage etc!

As for other medical things, I have been feeding him like a horse, his marks are slowly starting to heal up and he is taking a major vitamin dose daily and has a physical job so that he is moving around. He has been able to go to the bathroom, but I did get laxative..he doesn't have the diarreah, he is constipated...I keep giving him water and fiber as well! Sleeping is not so great for him, he drinks a organic kavakava tea at night, I do think it helps him to relax...what should he take OTC for normal back pains (which he is feeling now again since he is not high!) advil?

ok, have to go to work now....paperwork calls!!
thanks to all, Robert for advice and the rest of you for being able to read your stories, may the force be with~
always pondering and vehmenetly listening

The time for him to make the switch IF he is going to do it is at 30mg. He is wrong about the suboxone working better and his cravings being less at a lower dose than 30mg. That line of thinking is a mistake. If you want to discuss the way to handle this contact me per our email conversation. God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

My fiance is on his second day of 35mg meth today... NOT feeling good.... but he seems determined to wait as long as he possible can to take it...is that so today's dose lasts into tomorrow longer?

I want him to stay at 35 for a little longer than he stayed at 40, it is a pain in the butt to break it up evenly! I have 200 mgs, and we added water to it to make it easier to eyeball it...so now what I am going to do is use a big huge dose syringe (that we use for the horses to give meds) but I can draw the entire amount out break it out evenly that way...I feel better knowing that each amount will be identical...what ever that amount is!

Tomorrow we are going to the city to see if he can find suboxone, if now it will have to be more methadone for now. I haven't had the 5 min. to call around to some doctors about their suboxone treatment cost etc...he was all about doing it his way and getting down on the methadone etc...but I think he is feeling pretty ********************ty...and suboxone is sounding like a better plan now...Thanks to Robert's information....

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by fitzcoyote

My fiance is on his second day of 35mg meth today... NOT feeling good.... but he seems determined to wait as long as he possible can to take it...is that so today's dose lasts into tomorrow longer?

I want him to stay at 35 for a little longer than he stayed at 40, it is a pain in the butt to break it up evenly! I have 200 mgs, and we added water to it to make it easier to eyeball it...so now what I am going to do is use a big huge dose syringe (that we use for the horses to give meds) but I can draw the entire amount out break it out evenly that way...I feel better knowing that each amount will be identical...what ever that amount is!

Tomorrow we are going to the city to see if he can find suboxone, if now it will have to be more methadone for now. I haven't had the 5 min. to call around to some doctors about their suboxone treatment cost etc...he was all about doing it his way and getting down on the methadone etc...but I think he is feeling pretty ********************ty...and suboxone is sounding like a better plan now...Thanks to Robert's information....

Let me know what you are told when you make some calls today. Sometimes these guys don't always share what you need to hear. Will be waiting to hear what you find out. God bless.

[fitzcoyote]

SO, HERE I GO, CALLING ALL THESE DOCTORS ABOUT WHAT THEIR VIEWS ON SUBOXONE.... AND I CAN'T GET ANY OF THEM ON THE PHONE...NOT A RECEPTIONIST OR NURSE OR NOTHIN!!!! UHG!

SO, WHEN I FINALLY DID, IT WAS 350 FOR THE FIRST VISIT, 90 FOR ADDITIONAL VISIST, OVER A SIX MONTH PERIOD OF TIME, IN THE FIRST MONTH THERE IS BETWEEN 5 TO 7 VISITS ALONE...THE DOSAGE STARTS USUALLY AROUND 16MGS.... WHICH WAS GOOD TO KNOW...BUT WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COME CLOSE TO SWINGING THE COST OF SUCH A VENTURE...PLUS THE COST OF PILLS! NO WAY JOSE...

SO...TOMORROW WE GO TO THE CITY AND SEE WHAT WE CAN FIND...