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Too little subutex?
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    Default Too little subutex?

    My doctor prescribed subutex 4 mg twice a day, 7 days ago. Having read Robert325"s Stickie, I induced myself at 2 mg, for a 3 year habit of 150 mg Hydrocodone. The anxiety is tolerable, but my blood pressure is in the high 160s, my pulse is 100 and I sweat a lot at night. I am 68. Do I wait it out, then taper? Or would it be better to take 0.5 mg every 2 hours until I am asymptomatic? Then taper? Frankly the headaches and sweats and inability to sleep are the only really crummy parts of this so far. I need to function (don't we all?) at work and hate to lie around the house exhausted.

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    pongo64 is offline Member
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    I am not an expert, but I was a 250-750 Mg and my doc started me with 8Mg twice a day. The discomfort for me lasted two days and each taper really only hit me for a day. 7 days and anxiety...maybe you should call the doc. They often hand out Xanax to help.

    Sorry, I can't answer the dosage questions.

    Correction...Oops...just realized...you said Subutex...I know it is basically the same drug, but I was on Suboxone.
    Last edited by pongo64; 07-25-2011 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Correction

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    My doctor prescribed subutex 4 mg twice a day, 7 days ago. Having read Robert325"s Stickie, I induced myself at 2 mg, for a 3 year habit of 150 mg Hydrocodone. The anxiety is tolerable, but my blood pressure is in the high 160s, my pulse is 100 and I sweat a lot at night. I am 68. Do I wait it out, then taper? Or would it be better to take 0.5 mg every 2 hours until I am asymptomatic? Then taper? Frankly the headaches and sweats and inability to sleep are the only really crummy parts of this so far. I need to function (don't we all?) at work and hate to lie around the house exhausted.



    If you took 2mg to start I would drop the subsequent dose to .5mg. You want to be stable and it doesn't sound like you are, but you want to be on the lowest dose possible. I would take .5mg, then wait a good hour at least. It may be enough. If you still feel kind of "off" I would reduce the next dose to .25mg. I hardly ever have to go over 3mg or so to get anyone stable especially with a hydro habit. Most sub drs over prescribe the sub doses and this will work if you follow what I'm saying to the letter.

    I'm glad to see you posted again and I will do anything I can to help you. Glad to finally get someone on the forum who is a little older than me! lol Just teasing! Let me know how it's working for you. I'll be up for a while and will check back on you if you need to post back to me.

    I'm here most every day. I will be happy to work with you all the way through this if you need me to. Just let me know what I can do to help you. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 07-25-2011 at 10:00 PM.
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    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Thanks Robert for a well-worded reply. I did your "boost" and slept last night without the sweats. My pulse is down to 86, so I know I can work today. My doctor gave me clonidine but even half a pill made me dizzy when I stood up.So last night I took an extra 0.5. Now do I go back to 0.5 twice a day? I know you've done thousands of these subutex programs and I'd rather have your advice than anyone else's.
    One last question: is the headache from the Sub or withdrawal?
    Thanks again.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Thanks Robert for a well-worded reply. I did your "boost" and slept last night without the sweats. My pulse is down to 86, so I know I can work today. My doctor gave me clonidine but even half a pill made me dizzy when I stood up.So last night I took an extra 0.5. Now do I go back to 0.5 twice a day? I know you've done thousands of these subutex programs and I'd rather have your advice than anyone else's.
    One last question: is the headache from the Sub or withdrawal?
    Thanks again.


    Subs can cause a headache but it's not the norm. I suggest using Excedrin Migraine. It knocks out a headache in minutes. I've been suggesting it here for years. Hope that helps.

    Yes I would take .5mg twice each day, at the same time each day. Do that for four days and let's see how you feel at that point. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    OK Robert, I'll do that. I'm old like you (even older than you!) so I don't want to make my self sick by going too fast. On the other hand, I don't want to stay on Sub longer than necessary. I appreciate your help and will check in with you. Today is going well, except I'm exhausted--stayed up late reading these threads for moral support.

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    Default Night sweats

    OK, Robert. Felt well yesterday on 1 mg subutex that day after a 0.5 extra the night before. Plagued by sweats again last night. Had a gin and tonic last night and I think that may have been a mistake, to mix alcohol with subs. Does the alcohol cause you to metabolize the subs quicker? I probably should avoid alcohol--it's too much of a temptation.
    So my question is: keep on 0.5 twice a day, or bump up to 0.75 per day until I stabilize? The sweats--yuck!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Sweats are common with subs, but I never drank alcohol with subs. I would take a day or two with no alcohol and see if that doesn't help before increasing the dose. I don't see how alcohol could help to metabolize anything sooner.

    When you get down to 1mg it's just as simple to dose once daily. Pick a time like late morning or early after lunch. But I would stick with 1mg, no alcohol and see how it works over the next couple days. God bless.
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    OK, will do and keep you informed.

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    Smile No sweats last night

    OK__alcohol and subutex cause sweating, at least in me. last night no sweats--just nightmares. Had that last time I detoxed. Sometimes I'm scared to fall asleep because of the possibility of nightmares. Then I stay up too late and am exhausted the next day. Prozac can get rid of nightmares, but since I think they're temporarily due to the detox, I'm going to wait it out. Another symptom of the sleep disorder I get when I detox. I felt stable ALL DAY on the 1 mg (total) subutex, so I'll stay there another 3 days and then discuss with you, Robert, my first decrease. Cheers.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    If you need it through this last mg you can take an ambien or something similar to help you sleep. It won't hurt with the subs on a low dose like 1mg just for a short time. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Default Uncooperative doctor

    My doctor won't give me anything else for sleep other than Vistaril, which even at a half dose doesn't really work very well and leaves me groggy the next day (I fell asleep on the car ferry.) I can probably tough it out. Appreciate your suggestion, though. I'll log in in a few days to discuss coming off the sub.

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    Smile Checking in

    Wow! I think I'm stable. I've felt normal on Sub (1 MG) now for 48 hours. Actually exercised , cooked, and did some housework--BP normal, no sweats, vivid dreams but no night horrors. My joints ache, but that's the reason I got on Vics in the first place and I trust that will improve when my natural endorphins recover. So I plan on this dose for 2 more days, then go to 0.75? Right, Robert?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Wow! I think I'm stable. I've felt normal on Sub (1 MG) now for 48 hours. Actually exercised , cooked, and did some housework--BP normal, no sweats, vivid dreams but no night horrors. My joints ache, but that's the reason I got on Vics in the first place and I trust that will improve when my natural endorphins recover. So I plan on this dose for 2 more days, then go to 0.75? Right, Robert?


    That is awesome! You are exactly correct. Two more days at 1mg then drop to .75mg. Keep me posted going forward when you reduce.

    I wouldn't anticipate any problems but I want to be there for you just in case. We are all a little different and I can always get you out of any bind you may find yourself in. Stay positive and RELAX!!! You're doing great! God bless.
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    Smile 13 days since last Norco

    OK--it's been almost two weeks since my last Norco. I got onto Subutex at a very low dose--3 mg the first 24 hours and am now down to 1 mg per day. I'm amazed at how normal I feel. Last year when I tapered off Norcos it was 6 weeks of cold turkey pain, sweats and crazy BP. I was afraid I'd stroke out.
    This time--one tough day and just minor withdrawals, which I expected and are easy compared to CT.
    1 Mg this am and tomorrow I slide down to 0.75 for 4 days. Robert, I've been taking it just once a day and it works just fine. I love not having to think about my next pill if I go somewhere for an extended time.
    Last night fairly good--no sweats, no vivid dreams or nightmares--sleep quality not the best--wake up all night long, but I understand that's the last symptom to disappear.
    Cheers to everyone. Your stories and struggles help me just by being posted.
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    Default Down to 0.75

    Down to 0.75 this am. Going through a bit of personal sadness right now, so hope I'm strong enough to continue with the taper. I notice when I get antsy a crumb of subutex calms me right down. My Sub-Doc refuses me any anti-anxiety help other than vistaril, which grogs me out. Robert, I bought some Excedrine Migraine and it works wonders. Thanks for the tip.

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    Default Sweats

    Today, down to 0.75 Sub, but what sweats--like a river. Think I'll have to break down and take some clonidine. It makes me dizzy, since I'm already on three pills to keep my blood pressure under control. But people at work commented on my person rain shower.
    Sleep not too good, noon time naps help if I'm home. This is WORK, getting off opiates!

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Today, down to 0.75 Sub, but what sweats--like a river. Think I'll have to break down and take some clonidine. It makes me dizzy, since I'm already on three pills to keep my blood pressure under control. But people at work commented on my person rain shower.
    Sleep not too good, noon time naps help if I'm home. This is WORK, getting off opiates!
    Hello Shrimpboat,
    Just checking in on you. Robert is out with a down computer and he is supposed to be getting it repaired today so hopefully he will be back up on line sometime today. In the meantime we both cover for each other when one of us can't make it on the forum.
    Sweats is VERY normal and rivers of sweat at that. Subs as you know, I can see you reading all over , are very potent and also they mask withdrawal symptoms very well. With sweating try to think of it as the bad guys (addiction) fighting for it's own life and trying to fight a way out of the losing battle because you are winning. That takes effort and effort as with any sort of physical exercise causes sweating. The sweating can be so bad it literally will dribble off your chin and your shirt can become so drenched it really looks like you just walked into a shower then back out with your clothes on. A funny story to lighten up the worries but it really happened to me and one day a couple years ago I was in a conference. There were 30 some odd people in there when the sweats hit. I mean the people next to me became very concerned and one guy said “I’m and a certified EMT and this man is having a heart attack” to which I stated I am not. He insisted I lie down on the floor and I said I will not and I am fine and it will pass. Meanwhile the sweat was starting to pool on the table in front of me so to shut everyone up I just said “everyone my apologies. I am NOT having a heart attack. I am just fighting the swine flu is all.” I have never seen so many people rush out of a room so fast. No one said a thing they just bolted out. LOL! I even got to go home early that day!
    About all that can be done about the sweats is to have a small hand towel and ice water handy. You just have to wait it out. It doesn't last too long and is usually over after a few minutes. You can however feel it coming on as you start to feel flushed and your heart rate goes up. Almost feels like as some folks stated to me a very controlled panic attack without the panic. Did you know the back of your knees can sweat?
    Sleep is the most common complaint during any detox. It unfortunately is also one of the very last things to correct itself once clean. The best thing is if you just can't fall asleep or stay asleep is to try not to stress about it and just get up and read a good book, relax, or do what ever pleases you. The human body will naturally zonk itself out into sleep if it becomes exhausted enough but I know our mental side of things kicks in with the fear and worries of needing to get sleep because of work the next morning or having to take on responsibilities and such. Remember though you are fighting a battle against a very formidable foe. Something you are winning on and that gives you the right to be proud of yourself.
    Hang in there and if I can be of any help just holler.
    I flagged this thread for follow up so if you should need anything just post it on this thread and I will be notified.
    Have a great day and you are doing awesome!!!

    Henry
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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    I don't mean to hijack someone's thread just had a few questions...this is the first time I've posted anything, but have been reading on here like a mad man since Monday.

    I started taking subs about 15 months ago just when i couldn't get any pills, for the most part I would just take a little chunk of one on my way to work in the mornings (from what I have ready I would say anywhere from .5 to 1 mg sometimes more sometimes less. The last couple weeks I would take a little bit bigger chunk just kind of whenever i wanted, around 2 or 3 times in a day. I haven't had any constant flow of pills in quite some time (at most 1-3 30mg roxies just when I could get my hands on them every week or 2).

    I have got to stop the suboxone...I just got married about 3 months ago, built a house and starting a family (not with kids!...yet) I know first hand what this can do to a family as over the last year or so I saw my mom every week run out of her 120 perc 10 meds 2 weeks in and end up in rehab...I can't get there.

    I have read, read, read the taper plan and followed lots of peoples progress and kind of started, but not sure if I'm on the right track...I had a roxie Saturday night and woke up in the middle of the night Sunday night with RLS and took a little chunk of a sub and when right back to sleep (maybe 1ish mg or less?) which worried me and that is how I ended up finding this forum.

    Since that chunk in the middle of the night Sunday I have taken 2 pieces that were about the size of a grain of sand (or smaller) Mon and Tues at 3. Until today i just had minor anxiety and stomach issues, but sleep and all else has been ok. Today the anxiety and crazy legs got ahold of me and about half an hour ago I took the two little grains of sand. Not sure if that's what is helping or typing this, but either way not as anxious.

    I know i have completely rambled and not sure if it makes any sense at all. Just wondered if i tried to take too little too soon?

    And it also feels kind of nice to type this out...I have never, ever, ever, ever mentioned any of this to a soul...

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    I don't mean to hijack someone's thread just had a few questions...this is the first time I've posted anything, but have been reading on here like a mad man since Monday.

    I started taking subs about 15 months ago just when i couldn't get any pills, for the most part I would just take a little chunk of one on my way to work in the mornings (from what I have ready I would say anywhere from .5 to 1 mg sometimes more sometimes less. The last couple weeks I would take a little bit bigger chunk just kind of whenever i wanted, around 2 or 3 times in a day. I haven't had any constant flow of pills in quite some time (at most 1-3 30mg roxies just when I could get my hands on them every week or 2).

    I have got to stop the suboxone...I just got married about 3 months ago, built a house and starting a family (not with kids!...yet) I know first hand what this can do to a family as over the last year or so I saw my mom every week run out of her 120 perc 10 meds 2 weeks in and end up in rehab...I can't get there.

    I have read, read, read the taper plan and followed lots of peoples progress and kind of started, but not sure if I'm on the right track...I had a roxie Saturday night and woke up in the middle of the night Sunday night with RLS and took a little chunk of a sub and when right back to sleep (maybe 1ish mg or less?) which worried me and that is how I ended up finding this forum.

    Since that chunk in the middle of the night Sunday I have taken 2 pieces that were about the size of a grain of sand (or smaller) Mon and Tues at 3. Until today i just had minor anxiety and stomach issues, but sleep and all else has been ok. Today the anxiety and crazy legs got ahold of me and about half an hour ago I took the two little grains of sand. Not sure if that's what is helping or typing this, but either way not as anxious.

    I know i have completely rambled and not sure if it makes any sense at all. Just wondered if i tried to take too little too soon?

    And it also feels kind of nice to type this out...I have never, ever, ever, ever mentioned any of this to a soul...
    Shldveknwm,
    First welcome to the forum. If you wish to start your own thread you can and it is pretty easy. On the "Featured Conditions" main page where you see all the threads on the upper left hand side you will see a button that states "New Thread". Just click on that and title it what ever you wish. Write your message then submit it with the button at the bottom of the screen. It will show up on the "Featured Conditions" main page. There you can see how many folks looked at your thread. how many responded, the most current poster with date and time and other cool information.
    Regarding your sub usage. Please be careful when using subs as you don't want to mix sub use along with opiate pain meds. Subs, without getting too techinal, basically block out the opiate receptors in your brain and when you have opiates (pain meds and their family) and subs both in your system both battle for control but the subs usually wins. The trouble starts when there is a conflict and it can send a person into precipitated withdrawal which makes cold turkey seem like a walk in the park and the only way out of precip W/D is to abstain from any subs and opiates completely and let it ride out of the system and that can take a long time due to the subs long half life which can be up to 72 hours so you can only imagine suffering for well over a week of intense misery.
    Since you have already started taking subs the first thing you need to do is stop all roxies period.
    Next thing is you need to measure the amount of sub you take so it is consistent. You do not want to vary the dosage as with subs more is not better but less is more due to the strength of subs, 30 to 40 times that of morphine all variables being equal, and the long half life you want a consistant balance and the key is to have a controlled taper until you are ready to jump off.
    Start off with the absolute minimum amount of sub you need to get you stabilized. I would start with .25 mgs. Wait a couple hours to let it get into your system and see how you feel. If you feel fine take no more. That is your starting point. If you feel badly then take another .25 mgs and wait another couple hours and assess how you feel. Always wait in between adding another .25 mgs for once taken you can not untake. You most likely won't need much more than 1 mgs total per day if even that.
    If you would like some help let me know and I will get you set up with your own thread to give you better visability and we can help you.
    Hang in there but please don't mix subs and opiates. That is begging for trouble.

    Henry

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Today, down to 0.75 Sub, but what sweats--like a river. Think I'll have to break down and take some clonidine. It makes me dizzy, since I'm already on three pills to keep my blood pressure under control. But people at work commented on my person rain shower.
    Sleep not too good, noon time naps help if I'm home. This is WORK, getting off opiates!



    I am back my friend. My computer crashed like Henry said, had to get a new hard drive. Watch taking a bunch of clonidine, your bp can go too low if you're not careful.

    Tell me what I can do to help you! God bless.
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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I am back my friend. My computer crashed like Henry said, had to get a new hard drive. Watch taking a bunch of clonidine, your bp can go too low if you're not careful.

    Tell me what I can do to help you! God bless.
    Welcome back buddy!
    Glad to see your computer is up and running!

    Henry

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    Talking Thanks Henry

    Henry, Love your funny story about "This man is having a heart attack. My being a woman, my co-worker, said to me, "Oh, you're having a hot flash!!" TMI. But at least no one called an ambulance or started CPR.
    A towel and a change of of shirt will be in my briefcase from now on. Didn't get the sweaty knees, but I did sweat between my fingers. I will imagine all those toxins escaping.
    It's like having rock stars on my thread, what with both Henry and Robert talking to me. With Melinda and Melissa added in here, I'd have a matched set!
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    Post BP doing good.

    Robert--
    thanks for looking after me. I've avoided taking the clonidine so far because of the BP issues I've had with it in the past (dizziness). Saw my Sub doctor today, and my BP wasgood at 135/86, so I'm pretty OK there. Pulse a little rapid at 91, but, no symptoms.
    She was amazed I'm down to 0.75 already, and wrote another prescription for 2 mg subutex--but I've already crumbled one 8 mg from the original prescription and have about 16 doses there, probably more than enough to get off. We'll see. If my BP starts spiking I'll slow down, but I'm doing so much better than I thought I would and SOO much better than the 6 week taper that almost did me in last summer.

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    Default Hi Shldveknwn

    Dear Shouldhaveknown--
    You'll get lots of good advice here, but the real stars are Henry and Robert. Read carefully what Henry has written and you'll do fine. I MEMORIZED Robert's sticky on getting off Subs. It tells everything you need to know. Welcome.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Robert--
    thanks for looking after me. I've avoided taking the clonidine so far because of the BP issues I've had with it in the past (dizziness). Saw my Sub doctor today, and my BP wasgood at 135/86, so I'm pretty OK there. Pulse a little rapid at 91, but, no symptoms.
    She was amazed I'm down to 0.75 already, and wrote another prescription for 2 mg subutex--but I've already crumbled one 8 mg from the original prescription and have about 16 doses there, probably more than enough to get off. We'll see. If my BP starts spiking I'll slow down, but I'm doing so much better than I thought I would and SOO much better than the 6 week taper that almost did me in last summer.




    You're the rock star! Henry and I are just here to help.

    Let me know how it's going for you tomorrow. God bless.
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Henry, Love your funny story about "This man is having a heart attack. My being a woman, my co-worker, said to me, "Oh, you're having a hot flash!!" TMI. But at least no one called an ambulance or started CPR.
    A towel and a change of of shirt will be in my briefcase from now on. Didn't get the sweaty knees, but I did sweat between my fingers. I will imagine all those toxins escaping.
    It's like having rock stars on my thread, what with both Henry and Robert talking to me. With Melinda and Melissa added in here, I'd have a matched set!
    Hi SB
    to funny you got me ..my computer has been doa it is in the shop...when I first came on here and Robert got on my thread I was like you, OHHHHH I was cool... LOL...If I can do anything for you or just need a girl to talk to...Im here...
    All my best, Melinda
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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    Henry, Love your funny story about "This man is having a heart attack. My being a woman, my co-worker, said to me, "Oh, you're having a hot flash!!" TMI. But at least no one called an ambulance or started CPR.
    A towel and a change of of shirt will be in my briefcase from now on. Didn't get the sweaty knees, but I did sweat between my fingers. I will imagine all those toxins escaping.
    It's like having rock stars on my thread, what with both Henry and Robert talking to me. With Melinda and Melissa added in here, I'd have a matched set!
    Oh man if I were a rock star my singing is so bad it would scare addiction away forever! LOL!

    You are doing awesome Shrimpboat! You are in the best of hands with Robert!

    Henry

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    Talking Sleep, at last!

    I slept six hours last night without waking! I can see light at the end of that tunnel!
    Seriously, I slept and consequently feel like a normal human being.
    So today, I took 0.5 mg Subutex. I feel well enough to wash those sweaty sheets and pillowcases, get a little heavy-duty housework done. Honestly don't know how you functioned while you were WDing, Melinda. My house is a little cluttered and dusty today. (Understatement. )
    So the plan now is 4 days on 0.5 then start skipping? That'll be Monday before the next change, so I'll look for your advice then, Robert and Henry.
    Cheers.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrimpboat 1942 View Post
    I slept six hours last night without waking! I can see light at the end of that tunnel!
    Seriously, I slept and consequently feel like a normal human being.
    So today, I took 0.5 mg Subutex. I feel well enough to wash those sweaty sheets and pillowcases, get a little heavy-duty housework done. Honestly don't know how you functioned while you were WDing, Melinda. My house is a little cluttered and dusty today. (Understatement. )
    So the plan now is 4 days on 0.5 then start skipping? That'll be Monday before the next change, so I'll look for your advice then, Robert and Henry.
    Cheers.
    Hey there Shrimpboat!
    Feels great when you get a decent sleep doesn't it? Being active really helps with W/D symptoms especially any aches and pains that you may have. I would not start skipping at .5 mgs as that is still a bit too high. It would be advisable to taper down to at least .25mg before you consider skipping days. At .5 mgs you will feel some unpleasant symptoms.
    You have that correct. 4 days at .5 mgs then taper by 25% to the next level for another 4 days and so on till you reach .25 mgs. From that point it is pretty much your call. You can start the skipping days process or taper further if you feel the need to. Remember, Robert told me this when I was going through this, you don't have to be a martyr. This is about getting clean not a race. It is also a process not an event. So very true!
    You are doing one heck of a kick butt job on this. Proud of you!

    Henry
    Robert_325 likes this.

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