[kyjobr]

I've read multiple times on here about tapering by 20% per week. What if I don't have enough to taper that way? I usually go through my script in 6-7 days and sweat it out a week or so until my refill. I am currently using 10 -5mg vic's per day and I've tapered before with just 5 pills. That seemed to work ok. Especially when I use Ultram or muscle relaxers too. I'm just so sick of being sick, ya know??? I had just gone through w/d's and was pretty much over it when I had my surgery. I very well could have not used the painkillers they gave me but I'm an addict so of course I took them! Not only that but I called the doc to say the dilaudin was too strong so could he please give me oxy's. This way I now had two scripts. Then he gave me a script for 7.5 vics when the oxy's ran out. I'm so scared now because I w/'d once when I had used some methodone and it was the worst w/d's yet. Now I'm freaking because I'll be coming down from these extra strength meds instead of the usual weak vic's. Sorry for the rambling....

[withak]

how funny! (as in strange). i just got on here to ask almost the exact same question, all the way down to the ultram and everything! well, here's my story/question...and i was hoping DAVE could give it a try and answer it.

dave - from all the advice i've seen you give, i still don't know you're own background. but nonetheless, i wanted to direct my question to you...all your advice seems very cut&dry/black&white, and that's the kind of answer i need right now. maybe your answer could help out 'kyjobr', too.

i've been abusing norco for many, many years now, alomst 10. well, i started with normal vic's and worked up, over the past 3 or 4 years maybe, to norco 10/325, and over the last year itself i've been using anywhere from 6 a day to (on a worst case scenario day) 10 a day. my doctor started prescibing ultram a few months ago, hoping i would be able to just go over to those and not need the norco. yeah, right. like that's gonna happen with an addict. anyway, i would love to be able to do that, but i've read some pretty scary stuff about ultram on here as far as w/d and stuff, so now i'm REALLY reluctant to take them in and of themselves. what i've ended up doing, and this has been my schedule for the past month or so, is alternate the norco with the ultram. so, i'll wake up and take 2 norco, then a few hours later i'll take 1 1/2 ultram, then in a few hours, 1 1/2 norco, etc., etc. i only START the day with a full 2 norco...the rest of the day is the 1 1/2 thing...

so, now i'm out of the ultram and there's a filled script of #120 waiting for me to pick up at the pharmacy. i'm down to #10 norco and shouldn't be due to fill it till next monday/tuesday, and even then, i never know if the doctor will say OK or ask me to see them first. so, my desire now is this:
to NOT pick up the ultram and somehow semi-taper off the norco. i know it would be impossible to try a "real" tapering dose since i only have 10 left. and what i've done in the past when i get down to this point is i end up using the norco more as a way of trying to keep a lot in my system and at least "enjoy" the high since i know in a matter of a day or two i'll be out and in w/d.

what do you recommend? i read on a different thread you advising immodium probably not only for the diarrhea but b/c it's also an opiate but doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, therefore possibly helping to calm down the w/d. so, could you maybe give me your idea of a decent taper schedule with only #10, plus, include some stuff i might be able to take to help ease the w/d? if i don't hear from you in a day or so, i might try posting this under a thread i know you've posted on, b/c i fear you might not come across this one.

thanks a zillion, dave. you're common-sense attitude is REALLY helpful to all of us and i myself know i appreciate your brutal honesty. it helps tremendously.

i am really hoping i can get thru this w/d and make it into the 'clean' world. any personal experiences with w/d would help tremendously as well...

oh, and for 'kyjobr'...i'd like to hear how this works out for you as well. how great would it be to be clean and hear the word 'prescription' or any name of drugs and not think twice about it? as if you're hearing the words 'fruit' or something. i would just love for this whole 'pill-world' to not mean anything to me. i want to be free!!!!

[Dave87666]

Withak...I am not sure if you're talking about me or the other Dave(MVPT) but either way we both seem to have the same brutal honest answers to peoples questions so I'll give it a go...First of all if you want "back round" info on me I am around 5 months clean after 5 straight years of Heroin addiction.Ive been to multiple rehabs etc... I am now clean,and happy because of Suboxone..That is my suggestion to people who want to have a easier way to get through w/d from opiates...If you guys want to taper I'd really have to say that its going to be hard only having so little pills so you are just going to end up cold turkey..NOW if you guys dont take the suboxone,and do end up in cold turkey then here are some suggestions to get through it(its still going to be hard!)

I'd get the immodium,pepto Max strength,tylenol PM(you're going to want to sleep through this as much as possible)..Also whenever I tried cold turkey ICE PACKS were great because of your body temp getting higher,and the burning skin,Keep yourselves very well hydrated ice cold gatorade will be your friend!The other Dave always suggests eating high protein foods(when you are able to eat that is) and also try as hard as you can to get out and do some sort of exersize(even walking) that will help relieve some of the pain in your joints,restless legs etc...And hot baths are soothing to your sore body,and I also like to throw in some cold showers(again for the skin being on fire)...I hope all of this works for both of you,and that I was some sort of help if I think of more I will write it out...IF either of you decide to go with suboxone(highly recomended by me) visit suboxone.com they have a Dr. locator and everything so you can find Dr.'s near you and start calling around to find prices(they all vary)...Goodluck!!

[krissybaby]

The reason why he reccommends the Immodium is because its the only thing you can buy that will stop the diarreah and cramping you will have. Thats what I know b/c he told me that when I was going through W/D myself a couple months ago. Please becareful with the Ultram too. Talk to you later.

Krissy

[kyjobr]

I seem to have different w/d symptoms than others. I get the diarrhea too but I've yet to vomit (I've felt like I would but haven't thank god!. I've told myself if I ever did that would be a sure sign that things had gotten way out of control) and don't seem to have the muscle pain everyone else does. My main problems are a racing heart, restless legs and massive depression. The depression is the worst. It's so scary how disassociated I feel with the world. I feel like why would anyone want to live? It's so boring, stupid, pointless etc. etc. I really feel like an alien on this planet.

[withak]

kyjobr -
yeah, i'm with you on the w/d. of course it all varies with people, but bottom line is most people end up describing the same basic symptoms. however, i don't even know if i would classify MY w/d as "flu" like feelings. as far as i can remember (meaning: going off the last time i withdrew, which was maybe a couple months ago?), yes, i definitley get the 'hot/cold' sweats, which suck. cause i'll wake up sweating, then i'll take a shower and feel normal for 5 seconds, then i'll be hot again, so i'll change into something cooler, then as soon as the air hits the sweat on my body, i'll feel like i'm freezing so i'll have to put a long-sleeve on again until i start sweating again, and back and forth. it's like clammy-skin feeling. it's really gross. like, i want to take a shower 100 times a day. don't get me wrong..it's not like i'm all gross and stink, etc. it's just ME that feels that way. i don't even know if i LOOK like i'm sweating, i just know it's how i feel. and i end up on the toilet with cramps and "loose stools" many times a day, i don't even know if i would classify it as your typical 'diarrhea'. i haven't ever vomitted. i haven't heard that symptom from too many people, but i'm sure it's out there. and then THE DEPRESSION. THE FREAKIN DEPRESSION. yes, that's my biggie right there. and yet AGAIN, i don't know if i'm using the wording correctly, since i've never been 'diagnosed professionally' as being 'depressed', so i'm not even sure it's 'depression' i'm feeling...but more like what you were describing. for example, all these super strong-willed people come onto this site in the midst of w/d, and they're describing how hard it is, then in the next sentence they're encouraging others. i read those posts and i think "wow. if it were ME going thru the w/d right now, i wouldn't even WANT to log on to this site, or any site for that matter, let alone ENCOURAGE other people." i wouldn't care about anything. for one, i wouldn't have the energy or interest to type anything and for another, i wouldn't be able to put a sentence together. i always just end up 'living in my head' during those first couple of days. i'll just lay on the couch and watch my husband and kids go about their living...."mom, we're going for a bike ride!" "honey, we're gonna go grocery shopping,...do you want anything?" (of course, during these times, they all believe mom's either 'sick' or needs a day of relaxation, since no one knows i'm in this hole of addiction). and while we're on the subject of food...i have ZERO appetite during w/d. food might as well be made out of straight cardboard for all i'm concerned. that's what it tastes like. i often wonder if without the pills i can't taste anything. then i'll have days where i'll just want to eat sweet junk food. maybe my brain finds some sort of chemical in chocolate or something that tricks me into feeling a fraction of a sliver better for a minute or two. at any rate, i get what you're saying about w/d. ~big sigh~ agh!!!! and here i sit with 10 pills left, knowing the inevitable is going to happen. i mentioned i was going to try to not pick up the ultram...well, funny thing. i caved and went to pick it up, and no one in the pharmacy can find it. half the techs are saying the doctor still needs to OK, the other half are saying they've seen it OK'd and floating around, but regardless, they all agree it hadn't been filled yet. so, i said i would come back tomorrow once they figure out where it is. now, if that had been my norco, i would have stood there and MADE SURE they found the OK'd script and waiting while they filled it. so, the point being, here i sit again, back to where i was, with no ultram and knowing the pills are getting ready to vanish, and i hold on to the hope that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE this can be the LAST TIME i attempt to STOP THIS WAY OF LIFE!!!

dave -
yeah, i thought about that today...i never really addressed what 'dave' i was talking to! sorry about that! but you're right, either of you is fine. the one i had read a post from, though, had mentioned the immodium thing about it being an opiate that doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so was that you? now, you're big on suboxone. well, here's the deal with me and sub....i was brave enough about a year ago to go to my doctor (which was a different one than who fills for me now...this doc. was a hand specialist...)anyways, i went to him and confessed i was depending on the pills, etc. and he hooked me up with a sub. doctor that was literally right next door to him. i don't know about you, but here they make you see a counselor as well as take the sub. so anyways, at that point, i decided i was going to jump into this full-force. so, i started the sub and talking to the counselor, and then, all in a week's time, the counselor mysteriously 'quit' and i found out i was pregnant. naturally, they hardly have any studies done with sub and pregnancy, so the doc said 'no more', which i was totally ok with cause i was freaked out also since i was maybe 5 weeks along by the time i found out. so, i had taken sub pregnant for 5 weeks. so, the baby's born now, all healthy, thank God, and here i am on the pills again. but about the sub...yeah, now that i think about it, it took away the cravings and definitely cushioned the w/d. but they tasted so nasty! mine were sublingual, are they all? but the deal was, i took them for maybe a solid month, and started finding myself with thoughts of "i wonder if i increase this dosage by a fourth of a pill, if i'll 'feel' anything off of it?". which is a bad sign. anyways, the point is, i've been on them, and i wonder what would have happened had i stayed on them? so, you've been on them for 5 months? any indicator from your doc how long you think you'll be on them? is the goal to eventually taper off them as well? i've read some people take them for years. i just desire to be ON NOTHING. will i ever live a life where pills aren't on my mind? agh!!

krissy -
you found me! way out here so far away from 'our' thread!! i need to talk to you about the ultram. i've been meaning to do that ever since you mentioned that that was the last drug you came off of. i want to hear your story! i'll be in touch with you!

ok, you guys....thanks for letting me vent. it helps SO MUCH knowing i'm not the only person in the universe with an addiction to prescription pills and what that whole lifestyle entails....thank you, thank you, thank you...

[krissybaby]

Hey Withak..
you can email me anytime: krissybaby81@gmail.com
We can talk more about the ultram on our thread or via email. I will leave it up to you.

Krissy

[kyjobr]

I forgot to mention that the smell of anything at all makes me horribly sick to my stomach. That's usually the very first sign I'm about to w/d. That and the icky fuzzy feeling that I have every morning even when I have pills. Does anyone take pills in the middle of the night or do you also get that icky morning fuzzy feeling since it's been 8 hours or so since the last dose? I just found out I have another script at the pharmacy so guess what...my tapering of this script went out the window and I'm now telling myself I'll taper with the next one.

[withak]

yeah, that's what i would end up doing....it's always "with the next one"....man, pills are bad, bad, bad. well, i'm not tapering b/c guess what? that takes obvious massive mental strength and apparently unless someone is dispensing them to me i'll end up taking them as usual till they're gone, as i'm finding out. so, i have 6 left. they will definitely be gone today. great. and you know what's weird. if i have a full bottle and take my last dose at night and wake up in the morning knowing i have a full bottle, i'll be fine and get my coffee and slowly make my way to the pills, etc. but if i KNOW i have only 8 or so left (like what happened last night when i went to bed), then i'll wake up (like this morning) sweating and feeling clammy even though it's no different from the other nights, as far as time between pills goes. then i'll get out fo bed and go straight to the pills, hoping to get rid of this feeling, and i'm also starting to feel some cramping coming on. it's like, totally mental or something. I KNOW i'll be out soon so i start w/d already?? what's the deal with that? ~sigh~ so, now i can tell the 2 pills i took this morning are starting to make me feel "normal" so i get these grandios thoughts of quitting again, yet first thing this morning when i was feeling all gross my thoughts were "no way. there's no way i'm going thru this. i gotta get some pills...." so, this whole addict thing is NOT WORKING FOR ME...i'm not in control of my own thoughts and actions...i think strictly for the pills (or they think for me). either way, it's not right. i really envy these people who have the luxery of going to these rehabs and doing those "rapid detox" things where you wake up and feel normal. that would be so nice. what a dream....

[kezapeg]

Originally Posted by kyjobr

I've read multiple times on here about tapering by 20% per week. What if I don't have enough to taper that way? I usually go through my script in 6-7 days and sweat it out a week or so until my refill. I am currently using 10 -5mg vic's per day and I've tapered before with just 5 pills. That seemed to work ok. Especially when I use Ultram or muscle relaxers too. I'm just so sick of being sick, ya know??? I had just gone through w/d's and was pretty much over it when I had my surgery. I very well could have not used the painkillers they gave me but I'm an addict so of course I took them! Not only that but I called the doc to say the dilaudin was too strong so could he please give me oxy's. This way I now had two scripts. Then he gave me a script for 7.5 vics when the oxy's ran out. I'm so scared now because I w/'d once when I had used some methodone and it was the worst w/d's yet. Now I'm freaking because I'll be coming down from these extra strength meds instead of the usual weak vic's. Sorry for the rambling....

Hi mate. Hold on in there thats all i can say. I'm currently going 'cold turkey' again in the last 3 months. The last time was on May 3rd. I'd come to the end of the road with nowhere else to go to. My life was spiralling out of control. I'd become addicted big style to Amphetamine approx. 20 pounds/day but also had a painkiller habit that was immeasurable. ie: codeine phosphate/dihydrocodeine/coproxamol you name it in fact i abused it big time. Anyway back to May. I completely stopped any intake abruptly. The w/d was vile. I got through it with cocodamol, weak over the counter sort, 4 hrly. I continued this until i felt human again after the speed withdrawel. Well weeks passed by and the painkiller intake gradually increased again big time!! Unluckily i'm in a position at work to easily get pain relief hence i'm off at the minute. I went away last friday with only enough painkillers to last maybe 3 days well i went cold turkey big time in a caravan with my husband and son not knowing a thing about my painkiller problem at all!! I had to tell em on Tuesday night. I thought i was dying and so did my family. We came home the next day, Weds. It's now Friday night. All i've had in 2 days is a couple of brufen and paracetemol for headaches. Feel terrible but its not so long back from my speed withdrawel so i'm waiting and waitin to feel half human again. Feelin better now but not much. Keep taking hot bubble baths, candles lit and some nice relaxing easy to listen to music, in my case Patsy Klein of all people!!! I'm only 38 but in times of crisis i want soothin 50's music. I hope my advice can help anyone out there??? Just hold on in there folks, it does get easier honestly. Feel free to email me, Kerry.kezapeg@aol.com England by the way folks.

[kyjobr]

Originally Posted by withak

yeah, that's what i would end up doing....it's always "with the next one"....man, pills are bad, bad, bad. well, i'm not tapering b/c guess what? that takes obvious massive mental strength and apparently unless someone is dispensing them to me i'll end up taking them as usual till they're gone, as i'm finding out. so, i have 6 left. they will definitely be gone today. great. and you know what's weird. if i have a full bottle and take my last dose at night and wake up in the morning knowing i have a full bottle, i'll be fine and get my coffee and slowly make my way to the pills, etc. but if i KNOW i have only 8 or so left (like what happened last night when i went to bed), then i'll wake up (like this morning) sweating and feeling clammy even though it's no different from the other nights, as far as time between pills goes. then i'll get out fo bed and go straight to the pills, hoping to get rid of this feeling, and i'm also starting to feel some cramping coming on. it's like, totally mental or something. I KNOW i'll be out soon so i start w/d already?? what's the deal with that? ~sigh~ so, now i can tell the 2 pills i took this morning are starting to make me feel "normal" so i get these grandios thoughts of quitting again, yet first thing this morning when i was feeling all gross my thoughts were "no way. there's no way i'm going thru this. i gotta get some pills...." so, this whole addict thing is NOT WORKING FOR ME...i'm not in control of my own thoughts and actions...i think strictly for the pills (or they think for me). either way, it's not right. i really envy these people who have the luxery of going to these rehabs and doing those "rapid detox" things where you wake up and feel normal. that would be so nice. what a dream....

The Seattle Science Center had an exhibit on drug addiction a while back and it said that the effect of drugs can completely change depending upon your mindframe and surroundings. It also said that people OD on the same amount they are used to because they are around different people etc. I found that so fascinating! So it only makes sense that w/d's are different based upon your mindframe.

[Dave87666]

Ok lets see thats alot of questions I'll get to what I can think of...First of all when I am "sick" I am one of those people that is throwing up CONSTANTLY for days! Maybe its because my drug was Heroin who knows...Ok about suboxone,they are ALL sublingual,and well the taste you just get used to...I have been on suboxone a few times,but this time its been 5 months straight and also the LONGEST clean time that I have in over 5 years of using dope(in fact outside of rehab I have not in that 5 years been clean for more then a few days...YOu do have to go to a special Dr. for suboxone not just anyone can hand it out(they have to have training,and a special number to put on the script that tells the pharm that the Dr. can prescribe suboxone) I just highliy recomend the stuff because without it I'll put ANY amount of money on it that I would'nt be helping out on this site or be here at all b/c I'd still be using...If I can offer anymore help just ask! My email is hitinthc1@aol.com if you would like to talk more private..

P.S.-It was the other Dave(MVPT) that made the statement about the immodium thing about it being an opiate that doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier..All I ever used immodium for was for the stomach,and I just didnt know about what he said at all...You take care!

[Dave87666]

PS-I wanted to answer one more question for you..As far as the length of time that a person is on suboxone is up to the Dr.,how bad your addiction is,relapse rate,and Im sure even more..My Dr. says that because of the amount of heroin+the time used+and my HIGH relapse rate that I will probably be on for life...There are alot of people that are not on it for all that long,and if the patient has been on it for a few months,and Dr. wants to take the person off then they will begin a taper off...