[magsj]

Hi Guys/Robert:

I started a new thread.....I needed to let my other one kind of disappear..there was a little too much information on that thread about some people that are close to me.

Anyway, on Suboxone taper. 4 days ago dropped to 4.5mg from 6mg. Yesterday was to be my last day at 4.5mg and today I am supposed to drop agian by 25% of my dose. On day 2 of 4.5mg I struggled a little with lack of energy/fatigue etc. but that's okay. I saw my new family doctor yesterday (NICE GUY, very encouraging and respectful about my situation) and he gave me sample of Rozerem for sleep. I took one at 10:00pm. Then last nigth started getting pretty sick at about midnight....back pain, grumbling lower disgestive symptom, irritation/anxiety, unable to sleep, etc. I waited it out but it all seemed to be getting worse. UGH. I broke down and took about 1mg of Sub at 2:00 a.m. I didn't want to do this. The symptoms slowly subsided. Even after taking the sleeping supplement I never slept at all. At 11:00 a.m. today I took as close to 2.25mg of Sub., so last night and this morning would equal 3.25mg which is what I was to drop to today.

I'm pretty disappointed because I have seen a lot of people taper down to 1mg or less with relative ease before they started having difficulty. Man I don't want to start having problems at 3 or 4mg.........

Should I go ahead and stick with what I have taken (1mg 2:00 am last night and 11:00 a.m. today 2.25mg = 3.25, or since I had a problem last night stay at 4.5mg for another day?

I'm not going to take anything until later when I hear from you.

Thanks, again.

mags

[magsj]

Alright no sooner did I send my last post when I decided "what an idiot use your common sense". So I will stick with what I have taken (3.25) and see how it goes, hopefully it will go okay

I'll let ya know.

Hugs,
m

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi Guys/Robert:

I started a new thread.....I needed to let my other one kind of disappear..there was a little too much information on that thread about some people that are close to me.

Anyway, on Suboxone taper. 4 days ago dropped to 4.5mg from 6mg. Yesterday was to be my last day at 4.5mg and today I am supposed to drop agian by 25% of my dose. On day 2 of 4.5mg I struggled a little with lack of energy/fatigue etc. but that's okay. I saw my new family doctor yesterday (NICE GUY, very encouraging and respectful about my situation) and he gave me sample of Rozerem for sleep. I took one at 10:00pm. Then last nigth started getting pretty sick at about midnight....back pain, grumbling lower disgestive symptom, irritation/anxiety, unable to sleep, etc. I waited it out but it all seemed to be getting worse. UGH. I broke down and took about 1mg of Sub at 2:00 a.m. I didn't want to do this. The symptoms slowly subsided. Even after taking the sleeping supplement I never slept at all. At 11:00 a.m. today I took as close to 2.25mg of Sub., so last night and this morning would equal 3.25mg which is what I was to drop to today.

I'm pretty disappointed because I have seen a lot of people taper down to 1mg or less with relative ease before they started having difficulty. Man I don't want to start having problems at 3 or 4mg.........

Should I go ahead and stick with what I have taken (1mg 2:00 am last night and 11:00 a.m. today 2.25mg = 3.25, or since I had a problem last night stay at 4.5mg for another day?

I'm not going to take anything until later when I hear from you.

Thanks, again.

mags

I would go for the 3.25mg. You can always take a sliver if you have to. I want you to get stable at this dose though before tapering further.

Rozerem will only help if your room is absolutely dark, it works like melatonin. It affects how your brain goes from the wake cycle to the sleep cycle, so you can't lay in bed and watch tv. I have terrible sleep habits, watch tv in bed all the time, Rozerem was useless for me because of my habits. Melinda has a bottle of it too. I hope it works for you but seriously you have to use it exactly like you're supposed to or it won't help much.

You should feel better tomorrow. Don't worry I have seen people have a tough time at a given dose and then everything turns around for the positive afterwards and it smooths out. Just continue to do things properly and it will all work out. We'll talk later. God bless.

[magsj]

Thanks Robert. I DID lie in bed, no TV, completely dark, etc. for 2+ hours (Ya see, I have no choice, my husband requires no TV, noise, has to be completely dark, etc so he FORCES me to comply with the proper sleep hygiene thing). For my birthday last year he bought me a very nice flat screen for the bedroom, I LOVE to watch TV before going to sleep, but it's either my husband in bed with me or the TV.....sometimes the TV DOES winout however...hehehehe.

Well, I'm not very optimistic about the Rozerem then (no wonder the samples come with a sleep mask and ear plugs I thought it was just some new inventive durg packaging that would hike up the cost of the medication

Have a good evening.

m

[magsj]

Hi R and All-

Yeah, went to an equivalency chart and, according to this "chart" at 3.25 I'm taking 162.7 (or something like that) of methadone I'm not going there, for one thing I'd be dead since I was only taking 20mg Methadone and 8 Norco a day. I chose not to believe it, never should have even caved into looking it up. I will continue to feel good about mysef and forget about it. I hesitate to even print this because I don't want anyone else getting caught up in this. Oh, uh yeah - the suboxonezoneguy, not impressed, very negative person. Enough of that.

Tell Melinda, that rat, just kidding of course, I was so inspired by her exercising story I went out and walked (I walk often, just not too far or to vigorously) a trail yesterday, walked the rolling hill part 4 times. NOW my legs are killing me, not from w/d, just from the hills!!!!! It's a good pain though and SHE made me do it...hehehehe

Take care,

mags

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi R and All-

Yeah, went to an equivalency chart and, according to this "chart" at 3.25 I'm taking 162.7 (or something like that) of methadone I'm not going there, for one thing I'd be dead since I was only taking 20mg Methadone and 8 Norco a day. I chose not to believe it, never should have even caved into looking it up. I will continue to feel good about mysef and forget about it. I hesitate to even print this because I don't want anyone else getting caught up in this.

Oh, uh yeah - the suboxonezoneguy, not impressed, very negative person. Enough of that.
Take care,

mags

This is exactly what I mean. Don't worry about all that comparison/conversion stuff. Just do the next right thing.

And the suboxonetalkzone guy will tell you everything in the world you need to know about anything, he knows it all. Just ask him if you don't believe me. I need to let it go ....

Have a great day! God bless.

[melinda7.5]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi R and All-

Yeah, went to an equivalency chart and, according to this "chart" at 3.25 I'm taking 162.7 (or something like that) of methadone I'm not going there, for one thing I'd be dead since I was only taking 20mg Methadone and 8 Norco a day. I chose not to believe it, never should have even caved into looking it up. I will continue to feel good about mysef and forget about it. I hesitate to even print this because I don't want anyone else getting caught up in this. Oh, uh yeah - the suboxonezoneguy, not impressed, very negative person. Enough of that.

Tell Melinda, that rat, just kidding of course, I was so inspired by her exercising story I went out and walked (I walk often, just not too far or to vigorously) a trail yesterday, walked the rolling hill part 4 times. NOW my legs are killing me, not from w/d, just from the hills!!!!! It's a good pain though and SHE made me do it...hehehehe

Take care,

mags

Hi mags...
That is so funny...Oh did I laugh...But I'm going to Blame this all on Robert...LOL...
He is the one that got me started...He was talking about how he used to go running for FIVE miles a day...
So off I went on my first day and ran three miles...MY FIRST TIME ...
The next day I thought I was going to die...LOL
But don't give up now just do a little and work your way up...

How is the sleeping going ???

Talk to you later, Melinda

[girlonpc03]

the chart i gave you the link to...i used to wrap my head around why i feel so terrible at such a low dose there are alot of variables to consider when converting doses...methadone and subs act differently for one...so don't get all bugged out and the site linking to subtalkzone was for that specific article....subs is a microgram thing and we are doing mil.grm. so there is going to be a significant difference in how we feel when we decrease our dose. sorry to confuse or discourage you that wasn't my intent at all. i'm a neuroscience major and this stuff fascinates me i didn't even think of it in any other way.
listen man i'm just as anxious as you i swear it and i'm on day 4 of .25mg....it's not easy especially w/people whom are predisposed to anxiety...which i am assuming you are...and myself included ESPECIALLY REGARDING W/D! it sucks it's hell but in all honesty i've been looking stuff up for fun....i've been following roberts plan pretty much to the t...when i feel stable at a dose then i go down...right now on day 4 i'm like 80% and def. not adjusted yet...when i feel 100% on this dose..eating/sleeping reg. i'll decrease to .12mg [i adjusted my taper to go really low b/c of my nature]
what i do is focus on what is going on w/me....if i feel bad i tell robert and i sort of talk myself through the day b/c i'm not at 0mg i'm taking more the next day and if i just get through this allotted time all the better in the end b/c my body is adjusting to the decrease.
i'm not sure if you know about neurotransmitters...i'll give you a crash lesson just in case you don't...your brain produces endorphins and other misc. neurotransmitters that communicate what your body needs...it's sort of like the brains message system...well taking subs tells your brain hey we're good we don't need opiates b/c we're stocked so your brain gets lazy so to speak and when you taper your body is like hey we are not at our normal levels and has a tantrum [w/d symptoms] which gets your lazy brain into gear and then it compensates for the loss. but since it's been spoiled and didn't need to work it's not really happy about going back to work so you can stimulate it w/exersize and supplements and so forth.
so i guess my point is hang in there everything will be okay no matter what your on or at what dose tapering is the way to go and it allows your body to heal naturally. i'm so sorry if those links messed you up....a drug is a drug your coming down your doing well that is all that matters and i'm here with ya...

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by girlonpc03

the chart i gave you the link to...i used to wrap my head around why i feel so terrible at such a low dose there are alot of variables to consider when converting doses...methadone and subs act differently for one...so don't get all bugged out and the site linking to subtalkzone was for that specific article....subs is a microgram thing and we are doing mil.grm. so there is going to be a significant difference in how we feel when we decrease our dose. sorry to confuse or discourage you that wasn't my intent at all. i'm a neuroscience major and this stuff fascinates me i didn't even think of it in any other way.
listen man i'm just as anxious as you i swear it and i'm on day 4 of .25mg....it's not easy especially w/people whom are predisposed to anxiety...which i am assuming you are...and myself included ESPECIALLY REGARDING W/D! it sucks it's hell but in all honesty i've been looking stuff up for fun....i've been following roberts plan pretty much to the t...when i feel stable at a dose then i go down...right now on day 4 i'm like 80% and def. not adjusted yet...when i feel 100% on this dose..eating/sleeping reg. i'll decrease to .12mg [i adjusted my taper to go really low b/c of my nature]
what i do is focus on what is going on w/me....if i feel bad i tell robert and i sort of talk myself through the day b/c i'm not at 0mg i'm taking more the next day and if i just get through this allotted time all the better in the end b/c my body is adjusting to the decrease.
i'm not sure if you know about neurotransmitters...i'll give you a crash lesson just in case you don't...your brain produces endorphins and other misc. neurotransmitters that communicate what your body needs...it's sort of like the brains message system...well taking subs tells your brain hey we're good we don't need opiates b/c we're stocked so your brain gets lazy so to speak and when you taper your body is like hey we are not at our normal levels and has a tantrum [w/d symptoms] which gets your lazy brain into gear and then it compensates for the loss. but since it's been spoiled and didn't need to work it's not really happy about going back to work so you can stimulate it w/exersize and supplements and so forth.
so i guess my point is hang in there everything will be okay no matter what your on or at what dose tapering is the way to go and it allows your body to heal naturally. i'm so sorry if those links messed you up....a drug is a drug your coming down your doing well that is all that matters and i'm here with ya...

Now I see why you were asking all the questions about the brain and the suboxone! You're a neuroscience student, now I understand! LOL I'm glad you mentioned that. Now I know a little more about you and the reasons for some of your questions.

I didn't want to get in to all the neurotransmitter stuff because usually people get bored with all that. Or else they think I'm trying to sound like a scientist which I'm not. I'm educated, but I'm mainly a reformed hippie from the 1960s. But I'm like you in that I've researched so much about meds and illnesses, that's how I've learned a lot of what I know. Research, some education, and a lot of personal experience all work together pretty well.

I couldn't have given a more simple explanation than what you just gave about the transmitters and endorphines. The only thing I would add is that buprenorphine is a partial agonist while most RX opiates are total agonists. So while you're on subs your transmitters are able to heal a little while you still get the messages going to the brain that you're okay with the partial agonist effects. You're right that a drug is a drug and you're tapering down, that is what matters. Hang in there ladies. God bless.

[magsj]

Hi-

Robert...and GirlonPC..thanks for your input and education. I know some about neurotransmitters (dopamine, norepinephrine, seratonin, etc. etc.) when it comes to depression (after all it has been my life's study for the last 14 years...hehehehe) and I know the basics about opiates "hijacking" dopamine and dopamine receptors, etc. since this was kind of "basic training" in nursing school, but I don't know the in's and out's of neurotransmitters and withdrawal, so thanks for enlightening me a bit.

I started getting sick (definite w/d sx) yesterday around 3:00 p.m.. Back ache, joints, muscles, etc, didnt' feel well. Last Tues. I decreased to 3.25, so I started feeling crummy on 3rd day. I took my late afternoon dose and didn't feel much better. I added a "sliver" at about 7:00 p.m. last night and felt some improvment. I probably should have just toughed it out though. I was supposed to drop by 25% today, but based on last night I though I would stay at 3.25 for one more day. I was okay today until about 12:00, then I started getting w/d sx again, I waited it out for a couple hours and the sx were getting a lot worse -back pain, muscle/joint ache, lower GI grumblings, felt like I had the flu only worse. So at about 2:00 I took my afternoon dose (1/2 of the 3.25 - I know it was early and I am not supposed to do this) and i didn't feel better, so, again, I added,, what I am sure is a little more than a "sliver". I started out this morning with a whole pill so from what I have left I would have to say that today I have taken around 3.75mg. I started to feel much better, I even felt at first like I had taken too much, got a little sleepy even, but then a little later had the GI upset thing again and just don't feel all that well. What do you think I should do from here.

I will tell you what I have become aware of from this episode though.....I encountered the "if a little will help a little more will be even better" ADDICT thinking when i was feeling so bad....NOT GOOD. The other thing I now see myself doing is the "oh, I hurt, I need SOMETHING to take it away" dance and last, but not least, I need to get more methodical and accurate with my dosages now. Before the last couple days I think I was being a little cautious in my doses. I feel lke I went from cautious to careless...yeah, no in between for me I can also see that when the w/d rears it ugly head I start getting a little panicky.....have to learn to not do this. I think what I did with this afternoon's dose is not wait long enought before thinking it wasn't helping. I really need to be cognizant of these behaviors and work on not falling into their trap.

I know I am rambling on and I appologize......today was definitely not good. Feeling okay now, but JUST okay.

My long-range mindset is still good, but i realize that this is going to take a little more "character" than I thought.

Hope all is will with you and Melinda. I'm still good, just learned some lessons and wandering what to do dosage wise now.

As always,
mags

[magsj]

Well, maybe NOT feeling so good.

mags

[melinda7.5]

Originally Posted by magsj

Well, maybe NOT feeling so good.

mags

Hi Mags
hey sorry your not feeling well I wish I could bring you over a big pot of chicken soup or something...
How are your legs today...
Talk to you later, Melinda

[magsj]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi-

Robert...and GirlonPC..thanks for your input and education. I know some about neurotransmitters (dopamine, norepinephrine, seratonin, etc. etc.) when it comes to depression (after all it has been my life's study for the last 14 years...hehehehe) and I know the basics about opiates "hijacking" dopamine and dopamine receptors, etc. since this was kind of "basic training" in nursing school, but I don't know the in's and out's of neurotransmitters and withdrawal, so thanks for enlightening me a bit.

I started getting sick (definite w/d sx) yesterday around 3:00 p.m.. Back ache, joints, muscles, etc, didnt' feel well. Last Tues. I decreased to 3.25, so I started feeling crummy on 3rd day. I took my late afternoon dose and didn't feel much better. I added a "sliver" at about 7:00 p.m. last night and felt some improvment. I probably should have just toughed it out though. I was supposed to drop by 25% today, but based on last night I though I would stay at 3.25 for one more day. I was okay today until about 12:00, then I started getting w/d sx again, I waited it out for a couple hours and the sx were getting a lot worse -back pain, muscle/joint ache, lower GI grumblings, felt like I had the flu only worse. So at about 2:00 I took my afternoon dose (1/2 of the 3.25 - I know it was early and I am not supposed to do this) and i didn't feel better, so, again, I added,, what I am sure is a little more than a "sliver". I started out this morning with a whole pill so from what I have left I would have to say that today I have taken around 3.75mg. I started to feel much better, I even felt at first like I had taken too much, got a little sleepy even, but then a little later had the GI upset thing again and just don't feel all that well. What do you think I should do from here.

I will tell you what I have become aware of from this episode though.....I encountered the "if a little will help a little more will be even better" ADDICT thinking when i was feeling so bad....NOT GOOD. The other thing I now see myself doing is the "oh, I hurt, I need SOMETHING to take it away" dance and last, but not least, I need to get more methodical and accurate with my dosages now. Before the last couple days I think I was being a little cautious in my doses. I feel lke I went from cautious to careless...yeah, no in between for me I can also see that when the w/d rears it ugly head I start getting a little panicky.....have to learn to not do this. I think what I did with this afternoon's dose is not wait long enought before thinking it wasn't helping. I really need to be cognizant of these behaviors and work on not falling into their trap.

I know I am rambling on and I appologize......today was definitely not good. Feeling okay now, but JUST okay.

My long-range mindset is still good, but i realize that this is going to take a little more "character" than I thought.

Hope all is will with you and Melinda. I'm still good, just learned some lessons and wandering what to do dosage wise now.

As always,
mags

Hey Robert are you out there? Can you tell me what I should do dosage-wise based on above. I appologize for my last post being kind of disjointed, I guess my thinking was "disjointed" yesterday. Sleep isn't coming easy at all. My family doctor prescribed Ambien two days ago, took it and still slept all of maybe 4 hours here and there....

Okay, supposed to drop from 3.5mg yesterday to 2.4 (if my 25% calculation is right). I did not drop and, in fact, due to problems yesterday took approx 3.75mg. I'm in better spirits today, going to walk today and maybe even force myself to weed to keep active.
Feeling tired but okay so far today.

I suspect you will say to stay at 3.5 for another day?

Thanks buddy,

mags

[magsj]

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Hi Mags
hey sorry your not feeling well I wish I could bring you over a big pot of chicken soup or something...
How are your legs today...
Talk to you later, Melinda

Hi Melinda-

Yeah, struggling a bit. If I could only sleep THAT might help. My legs are much better, thanks. I can definitely tell the difference between muslce ache due to exercise vs the leg pain that comes with w/d. No matter how I feel today I am going for another walk, maybe not as agressive....hehehehe, but going to go even if it's at a more leisurely pace.
I may even attempt some weeding just to keep my body/mind busy. I'm just waiting to see what R thinks I should do about my dosage.

Hope you guys are having some nice weather. Got cold here yesterday but today looks like it's going to be sunny and mid-70's...... )

Thanks for keeping track of me (Lord know someone needs to....!)

Hugs,
mags

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi Melinda-

Yeah, struggling a bit. If I could only sleep THAT might help. My legs are much better, thanks. I can definitely tell the difference between muslce ache due to exercise vs the leg pain that comes with w/d. No matter how I feel today I am going for another walk, maybe not as agressive....hehehehe, but going to go even if it's at a more leisurely pace.
I may even attempt some weeding just to keep my body/mind busy. I'm just waiting to see what R thinks I should do about my dosage.

Hope you guys are having some nice weather. Got cold here yesterday but today looks like it's going to be sunny and mid-70's...... )

Thanks for keeping track of me (Lord know someone needs to....!)

Hugs,
mags

Mags .... I think you should set a goal to stay at 3.5 mg and not take the extra sliver. That's good enough continuing through tomorrow. I want you to get good and smoothed out this weekend if you can do it. Just take 3.5mg wait till tomorrow night and we'll decide for Monday. If we can get you relaxed at one dose then the rest of the reductions will be easier.

As far as the ambien goes it's okay if you're having a really anxious night I guess. Just not all the time right now on the subs. Have you tried the valerian root? It helps a little for anxiety and sleep. You might try it.

Remember when I told you that some people will be having a hard time at one dose? Well then they get stabilized good and they have an easy time from then on. Let's see if we can make than happen for you. Just talking two days here, today and tomorrow at 3.5mg. But I know you're going to start having some easier days. That is what I want to focus on this weekend at least. Wouldn't it be nice to feel better?

I'm heading to the airport in an hour or so to fly back to Houston. So I will be gone until late tonite probably. Talk to you guys later. God bless.

[tired2]

Hey Mags... I sent you a reply but I didn't send it correctly on my thread ...so you probably never got it.

Sorry you are having a rough time sleeping you probably already know this but are you drinking any caffiene products ? If so I would stop all caffiene along with the sweets that is what I did .

I tried the Melatonin ...that stuff never worked for me . Then I used Ambian CR 12.5 that worked for awhile just hard to wake up with energy. Well when that didn't work I tried Lunesta (hahaha) nope that didn't work at all.

I also saw that you have a new tv in the bedroom . Well I would watch tv pay bills etc. in bed which I know longer do....I even started to go to bed at a certain time which I really hate since I loved staying up in my room watching tv . After a week or so was able to sleep .I only wake up now to pain.

One more thing I started drinking Sleepytime extra tea with it's made by Celestial (Wellness tea) it has Valerian in it also . It seems to help ....I add a little honey .

Well I will be tapering my dose just waiting on Robert.
Hope you feel better soon!
Pam

[magsj]

Hi Tired2-

Thanks for your kind thoughts. For many years we never had a TV in the bedroom. We bought a new TV for the living room about 5 years ago and the old one went in our bedroom. Never paid much attention to it until I started taking Methdone, then it became VERY convenient. Over the past 4 years I slowly set up camp in the bedroom (well, NOT REALLY but I felt like I did at times). I began watching TV in the morning (delaying getting up) and would retreat there as soon as I could in the evening. The methadone and Norco eventually made me very antisocial and all I wanted to do was hibernate in there, away from the world!

My husband has to have a completely dark room, no noise, definitely no TV to sleep. So we still go to bed the old fashion way...hehehehe...turn out the lights, no TV and hit the hay, so watching TV isn't my insomnia problem. I have struggled with it a bit from time to time but lately it's bad, sometimes I don't sleep AT ALL all night and, at best, I might get 4 hours or so, sleep an hour, awake an hour, etc. etc.

I'm feeling pretty poor lately, not sure if it is all w/d or lack of sleep, some depression or all of the above. The few times I HAVE gotten a good nights sleep I feel pretty well, but then I was at a higher dose of sub.

I kind of have the feeling of impending doom (well, not quite that drastic 0 ). I don't know I'm just feeling low, like the "pink cloud" or "honeymoon" is over and from now on it's going to be a battle. I don't WANT to think that way, but I guess reality is creeping in. I have to continue to be optimistic and listen to Robert, Melinda and all of you who are kind enought to keep cheering all of us in similar situations on. Ugh, I'm rambling on about nothing... I'm sorry I'm having trouble finding that positive attitude I had earlier.

Thanks again Tired2 and the rest of you who waded through the pity of this post..hehe.
Tired, I hope your taper is going well. I have been reading your posts but I can't remember where your at, although it doesn't matter.....just as long as your doing it!

Thanks again,

mags
PS - I DID get out an go for a walk trying to get those endorphins in gear.

[MaisieC]

Hi magsj,

Ugh, that insomnia really stinks! I remember it well. My doctor gave me Rozerem at one point, too. If you Google the words "Rozerem" and "useless" together, you will get a lot of hits!

As I was reading your last post here about your emotions, I remembered something. When I started back to work after getting clean, I was working at home. I didn't feel that well. I wasn't all that happy. It was really easy for me to go back to bed rather than sitting down at my computer and getting to work. So I was struggling with myself until this thought popped into my head: "it doesn't matter how you feel." I wrote it down. I thought it was a little harsh, but at the same time it was really helpful to me. Of course our feelings do matter, but when you're going through something this major, it's only normal to have fluctuating feelings. And when we get into using opiates, we become so very highly attuned to feelings that even the slightest unpleasant feeling we want to crush by taking another pill.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's normal to have a lot of emotions at this time, and not all of them are going to be good. For me, it was a real turning point to just check in with my emotions, acknowledge them, and then proceed with what I was supposed to be doing without letting those emotions hold too much sway. I had plenty of days where I felt emotionally shaky, scared, worried, etc. But the cumulative effect of just putting my head down and moving forward day after day was so helpful, and I think that provided a basis for feeling happier in the future. I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, but it was a revelation to me and turned out to be very helpful for me as I continue along in recovery.

Hang in there and keep up the good work!

[tired2]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi Tired2-

Thanks for your kind thoughts. For many years we never had a TV in the bedroom. We bought a new TV for the living room about 5 years ago and the old one went in our bedroom. Never paid much attention to it until I started taking Methdone, then it became VERY convenient. Over the past 4 years I slowly set up camp in the bedroom (well, NOT REALLY but I felt like I did at times). I began watching TV in the morning (delaying getting up) and would retreat there as soon as I could in the evening. The methadone and Norco eventually made me very antisocial and all I wanted to do was hibernate in there, away from the world!

My husband has to have a completely dark room, no noise, definitely no TV to sleep. So we still go to bed the old fashion way...hehehehe...turn out the lights, no TV and hit the hay, so watching TV isn't my insomnia problem. I have struggled with it a bit from time to time but lately it's bad, sometimes I don't sleep AT ALL all night and, at best, I might get 4 hours or so, sleep an hour, awake an hour, etc. etc.

I'm feeling pretty poor lately, not sure if it is all w/d or lack of sleep, some depression or all of the above. The few times I HAVE gotten a good nights sleep I feel pretty well, but then I was at a higher dose of sub.

I kind of have the feeling of impending doom (well, not quite that drastic 0 ). I don't know I'm just feeling low, like the "pink cloud" or "honeymoon" is over and from now on it's going to be a battle. I don't WANT to think that way, but I guess reality is creeping in. I have to continue to be optimistic and listen to Robert, Melinda and all of you who are kind enought to keep cheering all of us in similar situations on. Ugh, I'm rambling on about nothing... I'm sorry I'm having trouble finding that positive attitude I had earlier.

Thanks again Tired2 and the rest of you who waded through the pity of this post..hehe.
Tired, I hope your taper is going well. I have been reading your posts but I can't remember where your at, although it doesn't matter.....just as long as your doing it!

Thanks again,

mags
PS - I DID get out an go for a walk trying to get those endorphins in gear.

Hi Mags
I have been taking pain med etc... for most my life which you already read on my thread . Then for three years I was on so many pain meds from the PM doctor not to mention what the shrink had me on... before I went into detox I would come home and off to my retreat to avoid dealing with anyone... boy you are right it was convenient ....it didn't matter day or night .

I'm sorry you are not feeling well but at least you got out for a walk for those endorphins. I only wish I had done that . You can do this just remember that you are not alone and that at one point or another we all come to realize that now we have a battle to fight which will be a rough ride . Just stay positive and you will get through this battle...remember you have Robert and Melinda to guide you and the rest of us for support.

Hey mags your not rambling just need to talk or vent ...you can ramble to me anytime you want ...I know how you feel ....Sometimes I think this is never going to end .

You take care it will be ok....talk anytime you need to.
PS. you can call me Pam

[magsj]

Hi Robert/Everyone-

I hate to bother you Robert, but I need some help.

As you know I have been trying to acclimate to the 3.5 sub dose. I tried to drop to 3.25 on the 21st, I believe, didn't go well at all and ended up taking a "sliver", probably somewhere between a sliver and a very small piece in the evening. I wrote and explained what was going on and your suggestion was to try to not take any "slivers" and try to get by on 3.5mg until I was completely leveled out. I am struggling a lot. I start out in the a.m., take 1/2 of the 3.5mg and do okay until afternoon, then the w/d's start, I can feel the body pain (muscles/joints/headache....) coming on and it worsens and worsens and worsens, I take my scheduled other 1/2 (of 3.5) and I don't get much of an improvement. I try like heck to overcome the pain and I can't, finally I end up taking a sliver to small piece and eventually get a bareable amount of relief. It's 9:00 pm here, finally took a small piece/sliver at 7:00, some relief but horrible headache. Everday has been a struggle.

I suspect that initially I was underdosing when trying to get to 3.25 by taking too small of an amount. I'm trying to stick to the 3.5 but am getting no where, barely getting relief and adding probably .25 to .50. Overall I am feeling very poor. Of course I was doing very well until I dipped below the 4.5.

Any suggestions Robert. I feel like I am not doing this right, or I am being a wimp. The pain is everywhere, well you know, I don't need to elaborate.
Would I be losing a huge amount of ground if I tried going up to 4mg total a day and trying to get comfortable for a few days and then try again?

Despite the above I have been making myself walk everyday and did SOME yard work today to try to get my mind re-directed.

Any suggestions Robert? I feel awful. Man I hate to complain like this, I'm sure you get frustrated with it too.

Hope you trip is going well.

mags

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hi Robert/Everyone-

I hate to bother you Robert, but I need some help.

As you know I have been trying to acclimate to the 3.5 sub dose. I tried to drop to 3.25 on the 21st, I believe, didn't go well at all and ended up taking a "sliver", probably somewhere between a sliver and a very small piece in the evening. I wrote and explained what was going on and your suggestion was to try to not take any "slivers" and try to get by on 3.5mg until I was completely leveled out. I am struggling a lot. I start out in the a.m., take 1/2 of the 3.5mg and do okay until afternoon, then the w/d's start, I can feel the body pain (muscles/joints/headache....) coming on and it worsens and worsens and worsens, I take my scheduled other 1/2 (of 3.5) and I don't get much of an improvement. I try like heck to overcome the pain and I can't, finally I end up taking a sliver to small piece and eventually get a bareable amount of relief. It's 9:00 pm here, finally took a small piece/sliver at 7:00, some relief but horrible headache. Everday has been a struggle.

I suspect that initially I was underdosing when trying to get to 3.25 by taking too small of an amount. I'm trying to stick to the 3.5 but am getting no where, barely getting relief and adding probably .25 to .50. Overall I am feeling very poor. Of course I was doing very well until I dipped below the 4.5.

Any suggestions Robert. I feel like I am not doing this right, or I am being a wimp. The pain is everywhere, well you know, I don't need to elaborate.
Would I be losing a huge amount of ground if I tried going up to 4mg total a day and trying to get comfortable for a few days and then try again?

Despite the above I have been making myself walk everyday and did SOME yard work today to try to get my mind re-directed.

Any suggestions Robert? I feel awful. Man I hate to complain like this, I'm sure you get frustrated with it too.

Hope you trip is going well.

mags

I think making a short and sweet reply it should suffice. it's bed time for me. I agree that taking 4mg for a few days to stabilize good would be a smart move. Just don't do it too long ad no more than 4mg. There is next to NO pain relief after ceiling effect for pain which is a VERY low dose. Just get acclimated to the subs again and make sure you're there. Then we can do the taper again. Just take your time, you'll be all right. God bles.

[magsj]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I think making a short and sweet reply it should suffice. it's bed time for me. I agree that taking 4mg for a few days to stabilize good would be a smart move. Just don't do it too long ad no more than 4mg. There is next to NO pain relief after ceiling effect for pain which is a VERY low dose. Just get acclimated to the subs again and make sure you're there. Then we can do the taper again. Just take your time, you'll be all right. God bles.

Robert-

Just to clear something up. The sx I am having is not pain outside of withdrawal, it's withdrawal. Even though I have had a problem with back pain in the past, it is not disproportionate to the generalized w/d pain, so I am not trying to tx any pain other than w/d. The pain all goes away with a little more sub, it's just that I don't want to get off my schedule very much so I tend to be conservative with the dosing (of course until I am absolutely miserable) I hope that makes sense. Yes, I do know about the ceiling effect.

I'm sorry my post last night ended up so long. I really do start out trying to make is short and simple. The only reason I elaborate about the dosages is I'm trying to save you time by not having to go back and look up past dosages )

So, I got out an old weekly pill organizer and filled it up with the doses for the next week. I'll stay at 4mg for two days only, then drop again x 4 days and see how it goes. I think having them all cut up and dosed out might help.

Thanks for you input Robert.

As always,
mags

[magsj]

Originally Posted by tired2

Hi Mags
I have been taking pain med etc... for most my life which you already read on my thread . Then for three years I was on so many pain meds from the PM doctor not to mention what the shrink had me on... before I went into detox I would come home and off to my retreat to avoid dealing with anyone... boy you are right it was convenient ....it didn't matter day or night .

I'm sorry you are not feeling well but at least you got out for a walk for those endorphins. I only wish I had done that . You can do this just remember that you are not alone and that at one point or another we all come to realize that now we have a battle to fight which will be a rough ride . Just stay positive and you will get through this battle...remember you have Robert and Melinda to guide you and the rest of us for support.

Hey mags your not rambling just need to talk or vent ...you can ramble to me anytime you want ...I know how you feel ....Sometimes I think this is never going to end .

You take care it will be ok....talk anytime you need to.
PS. you can call me Pam

Hi Pam-

Thanks for your words of encouragement! I do appreciate it. Yup, this is beginning to be a bit of a struggle, but then, what did I expect!... a walk in the park????? hehehehe. I think I was feeling so good about myself at least getting off the methadone and norco and at 8-6-4mg wasn't having any w/d sx that I got cocky and forgot what it is I'm doing here. Then when I had the difficult time decreasing to 3.25mg I got scared and started thinking "oh man, this is going to be awful"..... i.e. negative thinking. I realize we can't go there, at least not for very long, a BRIEF pity party, then we have to put on our big girl panties and move on. So, done with the pity party (at least for now.....HA).

How are you doing? Where are you at these days. I have been following your posts, but sometimes I get people mixed up or merge them together! When you mentioned the pain meds "not to mention what the psychiatrist had you on" I understand completely, having dealt with depression for years there were times I was taking soo much psych. medication (anti-depressants, atypical antipsychotics, benzos, sleeps aides) I don't know how I even functioned. This is called polypharmaceutica (many medications) and psychiatrists, in particular, tend to do this a lot. It's called "if you throw enough s*** at the wall, somethings gotta stick" syndrome. This was a long time ago. I take one antidepressant that is supposed to help with pain - Cymbalta - of course now I see that people are having a terrible time getting off of THIS MED TOO.......ugh.

Let me know how you are doing? Are you trying to work right now? I am fortunate in that I am not working now so I don't have that pressure....man it would be hard to be doing this and work, my hats go off to those that do! When all is said and done I really want to go back to work part time, could use the $ and the social aspect. Since taking all these pain meds I have isolated myself, don't want to go anywhere, see anyone, etc. I think a lot of people here can identify with that.

Thanks again and keep in touch.

mags

[magsj]

Originally Posted by MaisieC

Hi magsj,

Ugh, that insomnia really stinks! I remember it well. My doctor gave me Rozerem at one point, too. If you Google the words "Rozerem" and "useless" together, you will get a lot of hits!

As I was reading your last post here about your emotions, I remembered something. When I started back to work after getting clean, I was working at home. I didn't feel that well. I wasn't all that happy. It was really easy for me to go back to bed rather than sitting down at my computer and getting to work. So I was struggling with myself until this thought popped into my head: "it doesn't matter how you feel." I wrote it down. I thought it was a little harsh, but at the same time it was really helpful to me. Of course our feelings do matter, but when you're going through something this major, it's only normal to have fluctuating feelings. And when we get into using opiates, we become so very highly attuned to feelings that even the slightest unpleasant feeling we want to crush by taking another pill.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's normal to have a lot of emotions at this time, and not all of them are going to be good. For me, it was a real turning point to just check in with my emotions, acknowledge them, and then proceed with what I was supposed to be doing without letting those emotions hold too much sway. I had plenty of days where I felt emotionally shaky, scared, worried, etc. But the cumulative effect of just putting my head down and moving forward day after day was so helpful, and I think that provided a basis for feeling happier in the future. I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, but it was a revelation to me and turned out to be very helpful for me as I continue along in recovery.

Hang in there and keep up the good work!

Dear Maisie-

Congratulatiosn and thank you for your insightful post. Oh yeah, I can see that emotions are going to fluctuate from day to day; it's probably obvious from my posts...hehehehe. I have to hand it to those of you who go through this while working! I admit, I'm not at all sure I could do that! I am so very happy for you. Perseverance seems to be a key factor here. I admit, I have never been good at meeting long-term goals (you know us, instant gratification), but I'm getting better at it the older I get )

Thank you again for your kind thoughts. I have read many of your posts; you contribute a lot to this little community.

mags

[magsj]

Hey Robert-

Did my last post make sense to you? I'm feeling like I need some reassurance. Sorry, don't want to burden you, I guess I'm just feeling lonely today.

mags

[magsj]

Originally Posted by magsj

Hey Robert-

Did my last post make sense to you? I'm feeling like I need some reassurance. Sorry, don't want to burden you, I guess I'm just feeling lonely today.

mags

No need to respond. I think just being sick for 4-5 days has messed me up. Much of the time I have been feeling pretty strong and but I think right now I'm just feeling pretty weak.

[johnsmithdds]

I have tried every prescription product on the market for insomnia and none of them worked; my cousin referred me to the web site narcomundo.com there I purchased a package of Somatize. I tried one serving and I was a sleep in 20 minutes and after using it for 3 nights I did not need it anymore. I am not joking! John from Stoneham

http://www.narcomundo.com/legal-drugs/anti-anxiety-drugs/somatize/

[johnsmithdds]

I have tried every prescription product on the market for insomnia and none of them worked; my cousin referred me to the web site narcomundo.com there I purchased a package of Somatize. I tried one serving and I was a sleep in 20 minutes and after using it for 3 nights I did not need it anymore. I am not joking! John from Stoneham

http://www.narcomundo.com/legal-drug...rugs/somatize/

[tired2]

Hi Mags,
I heard you were in Seattle ....did you get my e-mail from Melinda. I'm sorry your having a rough time .It will get better. I hardly had any problem then I ran 2 miles the other day and then had a personnel trainer the next day boy he kicked my a$$ I have been so sore for the last two days .
Well I tapered to .25 which I'm on day three which is really beginning to suck .I started to get RLS which I can't stand 2 days ago and last nite was the first nite I only slept 3 hours ....I guess I'm going to whine now.... so your not alone. I even take Requip for RLS but nothing is working now .I really hope this settles down tomorrow ...I was dealing with hot flashes which is one thing I also hate now the leg thing and sleep issue is driving me nuts .
I was at 16mg back in mid March I have pretty much been tapering every 3 days and all was good ...no silvers couple days of sore muscles and no energy but I was sleeping great and no leg issues. I think if I look at another line I'm going to scream .... They are starting to blend together .I just want this over NOW!!!
Well I'm not working so I don't have to worry about dragging myself in.
I've even started taking different vitamin for energy.
Ok I'm sorry I just needed to vent so maybe you will feel better now.
Thank's for letting me vent....Hope you are feeling better.
Pam