Yep its not easy

**Robert_325** · 03-19-2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by helz

I found this to back up some of what I said about the Dr's

http://www.suboxone.com/hcp/certification/faq.aspx

helz ..... I pretty much agree with most of what you said. I have recommended short term sub use for a long time. And I always recommend the patient does this on what I refer to as the lowest effective dose. This is done by being inducted properly with 2mg doses at a time until the patient is stabilized. The process is explained in the link at the end of this reply. Only in certain situations do I recommend maintenance doses for extended periods of time.

Lots of these sub drs give patients 8mg at a time, up to 32mg - 40mg per day at times. I see people come here that are an absolute mess when they get here from being RXd too much of this medication and for too much time. In these most severe cases it can take a couple months just to get the patient back down to a reasonable dose without putting them into serious w/d.

For what it's worth I think that three weeks like you mentioned is a little optimistic for MOST people. That may have worked very well for you but most people need a little longer (but not much) for receptors to properly heal so the patient isn't so likely to relapse. I recommend a 6-8 week program.

Check out my following link on suboxone. We've been using the suboxone.com site that you referred to for a long time. That's the site for the NAABT. Here is the link I referred you to .....

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

I think you are providing pretty good information for the most part. Just don't say that everyone should do it just like you did. You cut it a little shorter than most people need, even those who are only using pills, not including just the IV drug users. Good luck staying clean. God bless.

**xxhelzxx** · 03-19-2009, 01:03 PM

well, like I said. I suggested it for people who are on pills like I was. I know there are people who are way worse off then I was and need a different treatment, but from where I stand I was pretty bad. w/d's hit me harder then they do most people from what Ive found. And 6 to 8 weeks, I dont think that is to bad if you taper right. although I feel it is enough to addict a patient to suboxone and I would not give any false hopes of not having any W/D pains when they stop after using for that period of time. I really do feel sorry for those who have been on this stuff for months or years. thats something I have no expierence with and wont speak twards. just know I hope you find your way.

BUT I know there are thousands of people who are in the exact addiction pattern I was in and I am stating from first hand expierence that suboxone works IF USED CORRECTLY. and some Dr's DO NOT use it correctly (i.e my Dr who wanted me to be on it for months) and people need to know this. The point I was trying to make is if you are treating a person who is addicted to pain meds like hydrocodone/oxy of 150mg's a day or less and you treat them for MORE then 6 to 8 weeks with suboxone you are setting them up for disaster. As far as a maintenance dose for such patients, not needed. If the patient is serious about quiting some counselling, NA meetings, or a close friend/family member who can keep them strong is a better choice. If any MD who RX's suboxone disagrees with that statement Im calling that MD out as nothing but a money hungry malpracticing fraud.

**ddosher** · 03-19-2009, 01:08 PM

I am on day 10 off of suboxone. I jumped pretty quick off of 4mg was my last dose. I have been going through absolute hell with anxiety, restless legs, chills, and depression. I did go back to see the doc yesterday and told him right out I did not want to go back on Suboxone because I feel like I'm at the end (or should be) and he agreed. He prescribed tegretol that I take just 1 a day at bedtime. I have had two does now and I have to say today is the most productive I've had. I am getting to meetings because I need the support of people that do understand and I am reading a lot about recovery when I can. This experience has been HELL ON EARTH and I WILL NOT EVER go back to taking anything that makes me feel better than I should. Period.

Hang in there...it may get worse before it gets better...I was managing for the first 7 days (barely) but day 8 and 9 were brutal. I phoned the hotline and they said it takes 11 or 12 days to be completely out of your system. However, that does not mean that your brain receptors will be un-enflamed at that time. I believe that is where the tegretol helps. With the nerve endings. Good luck. Get to meetings.

Originally Posted by 2young4this

Today is the fourth day and I feel like all hell just broke loose. Before it was just anxiety and chills and now the leg/arm kicking has started. This is the part that I always give in and take something bc I can't stand this. I can't even sit still. How am I supposed to work like this? I really am hoping this part only lasts a day or so because I don't know if I can deal with it much longer than that. I wish I could have afforded another month with the dr so I could wean off but when I mentioned it to him he said he thought I should be on it for a year and that is just impossible for me, besides the fact that I figured I'd just be replacing the painkillers. I just don't know what to do. Why does it have to be so hard to live life the right way?

**xxhelzxx** · 03-19-2009, 01:09 PM

And I always recommend the patient does this on what I refer to as the lowest effective dose.

by the way. you should rub that kind of practice off on some of your colleagues. awesome practicing of medice to you for that.

**xxhelzxx** · 03-19-2009, 01:13 PM

ddosher, how long had you been on suboxone?

**xxhelzxx** · 03-19-2009, 02:02 PM

never mind, found it.
ddosher said:

I need help in terms of where I may be in my detoxing from Suboxone. I have been on it for about 5 months. I started at 16mg a day. As it built up in my system it made me so tired that I cut down to 12mg a day. About 4 weeks ago I lost my insurance so I began taking just 8mg a day...4mg twice a day. I cannot afford the Dr. and the medicine. The doc wants 100.00 per visit for a 1-week subscription. That costs 82.00. So....I took my last 4mg. on Monday morning. I am self employed in retail and I am managing but I do not feel well. It takes everything I have just to put a comb through my hair. But I am putting one foot in front of the other and I DO NOT want to return to it. Does anybody have the experience to know when I will feel like I want to get out of bed again and not like I have the flu?

this supports everything Ive said depending on what the sub was RX'd for.

now I dont know WHY you where RX'd the suboxone, but 5 months? It had to be a hell of an addiction for an RX like that. I mean REAL BAD. or are you taking it for pain as Ive read some are doing. which Im not real comfortable with by the way.

**Robert_325** · 03-19-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by helz

never mind, found it.
ddosher said:

this supports everything Ive said depending on what the sub was RX'd for.

now I dont know WHY you where RX'd the suboxone, but 5 months? It had to be a hell of an addiction for an RX like that. I mean REAL BAD. or are you taking it for pain as Ive read some are doing. which Im not real comfortable with by the way.

What most people don't realize is that when sub IS used for chronic pain only a very small dose should be used, as in 1-2mg per day. It can be used for chronic pain in certain situations but those are definitely the exception to the rule.

But there are situations where buprenorphine is an effective chronic pain medication. Most of the time it's used because the patient isn't as likely to abuse it as they would be with vics, percs, or any opiate that produces the euphoria we all know and became addicted to in the first place.

I see people come here on maintenance doses of 20 plus mg regularly.

People show up on this forum every week just like ddosher coming off months at 16mg, 24mg, etc. This is when it's impossible to get them off painlessly in a few weeks. But if they will follow the suggestions on the suboxone therapy permanent post mentioned on my previous reply I can taper them off without all the w/d symptoms. I've been successful with every single person who has followed my suggestions. Bottom line is that these people are still taking too much medication and it's seldom necessary.

When I started on subs I had abused opiates for 35 years. Was taking thirty 30mg roxies daily, 30-40 10/650 lorcets, 20mg xanax, 6-8mg klonopin, 20-25 soma and the list goes on daily. I stabilized myself at 8mg and using the system I advise others to follow was off everything in less than 8 weeks.

Not too many people show up here taking more pills than what I just described. If I was able to do it in less than 8 weeks with all I was taking I find it hard to understand why anyone needs to take sub for month after month after month. It's the dr doing it to most of these people no doubt. God bless.

**xxhelzxx** · 03-19-2009, 03:17 PM

you ate enough pills to be full. man congrats on knocking that gorilla off your back. and in 8 weeks even. see so my 10 days on subs isnt to fast and I feel a little ikky but its nothing in comparison to if I had stopped the hydro's. goos show Rob.

**Robert_325** · 03-19-2009, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by helz

you ate enough pills to be full. man congrats on knocking that gorilla off your back. and in 8 weeks even. see so my 10 days on subs isnt to fast and I feel a little ikky but its nothing in comparison to if I had stopped the hydro's. goos show Rob.

I was full.

I would absolutely run from it if someone tried to give me a roxie today. I nearly died twice literally. Won't tell the story again, I prefer to stay in the solution. I would not take any opiates for pain today unless it was from a surgery in the hospital. I just can't do it again or I will die. I know my limits today. I got clean on 6/6/02 and I still don't trust myself.

The only problem I have with ten days is the healing factor involved with the brain functions. In ten days the worst of the opiate detox is past, so it's feasible to successfully stop the opiates in ten days with subs. I would just be very careful about a relapse as the brain could really use just a little longer to heal than that. Just be careful.

No way I would say it can't be done in ten days. I tell people to start tapering down after one week usually. I think a little extra time is beneficial for the healing process for most people who are opiate dependent though. But we are in agreement on the idea of NOT using this medication for a long time. God bless.

**thogan** · 03-19-2009, 03:36 PM

Robert, 1 quick question for you. I was on the 4 mgs of suboxone for at least 10 months. I have been off of it for 17 days now and I am still showing positive on a drug test for opiates. Do you have any idea how long this will show and I am still real weak. Shouldnt this just about be out of my system?? thanks, thogan

**Robert_325** · 03-19-2009, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by thogan

Robert, 1 quick question for you. I was on the 4 mgs of suboxone for at least 10 months. I have been off of it for 17 days now and I am still showing positive on a drug test for opiates. Do you have any idea how long this will show and I am still real weak. Shouldnt this just about be out of my system?? thanks, thogan

The opiate drug in suboxone is buprenorphine. This drug does not even show up on a standard 5 panel or 9 panel drug test as anything. They have to do a special test for buprenorphine.

This drug has an extremely long half life. Depending on some variables (metabolism, fluid consumption, exercise, etc) it runs from 36-70 or so hours. After taking it for almost a year I honestly would be guessing to tell you exactly what the answer would be. I don't know that there even is an exact answer to your question.

I would expect it could show traces on a buprenorphine test for weeks, but not on any type of standard panel test. Who is testing you and what type of test is being used? That would be necessary info to have any idea of what to tell you. God bless.

**thogan** · 03-19-2009, 08:01 PM

I took a drug test we had at our house. It showed high levels of opiate/meth. My job is going to drug test at least 10% of the site on Monday. I just thought all of this would be out of my system by now and that I would start feeling more energetic. thogan

**xxhelzxx** · 03-20-2009, 10:21 AM

well man, this is my 5th day off subox after being on it for 10 days for my 4 year 100mg to 140mg a day hydrocodone habbit. yestrerday I had the chills all day, last night I couldnt sleep, today I feel a bit jittery but I think its getting better. I know all to well what opiate w/d's feel like and this just feels like a very mild version of it. im guessing ill be feeling better at day 7 maybe 10. ill keep ya updated. and tell me if you can if this is a normal detox feeling? oh and Ill never put another hydrocodone in my mouth, you would have to tie me down and put a gun to my childrens heads to get me to ever take another one. trust that. I dont need healing in the sence of relapsing. thats not an option.

**xxhelzxx** · 03-21-2009, 05:05 PM

Day 6. didnt sleep last night. feel bad today. bad lower back pain, almost feel like i need to through up but not really, I got on the tred mill today and though it might hekp, and it did for about 20 minutes then back to no energy. I still have 4 2mg subs and are trying my best to not touch them. Im wundering if I took 1 mg would it start it all over again?

**2young4this** · 03-21-2009, 08:43 PM

Hello everyone. I just wanted to update on my progress. I am at the end of day 13 and am feeling sooo much better than the last time I posted. I wanted to be sure I posted to let people know IT WILL GET BETTER. b/c that's all I needed to hear a short time ago. The withdrawals aren't completely gone, I am having a lot of anxiety, to the point where it's hard to breath at times, the chills come and go, and I can't sleep for very long. But all of this seems to be manageable. I have been out walking a lot, and working a lot of extra hours because it seems that the busier I am, the better I feel. Another thing I really wanted to share is the pain factor. See, I was prescribed narcotics for a spinal disorder I have, and even being on high levels of Oxycontin, I was still in pain. My doctors kept upping my dose, and I was left thinking, if I am growing tolerant this rapidly, what am I going to be on 20 years from now. So when I stopped the narcotics, I went to suboxone. When I stopped Suboxone I was concerned about how much more pain I would be in. But I can honestly say, the pain is exactly the same! Really, a couple ibuprofen give me as much relief as the oxycontin! I am just over the moon, feeling like I am getting back to my old self slowly but surely. I even laughed until my stomach hurt today! Please, if you are going through withdrawal from Suboxone right now and are ready to give up, DON'T!!!

**xxhelzxx** · 03-22-2009, 10:35 AM

day 7 off the sub. I feel like ********. I CAN NOT get warm. I did seep a little last
night but not much. my back is killing me. I have no energy at all. hope tomorrow is a better day. anything I could do to make myself feel any better?

**xxhelzxx** · 03-22-2009, 12:59 PM

Robert, you out there man? being day 7 off my 10 days of subs, do you think this is the worst of it? sometimes I feel almost ok, then others I feel BAD, like if I took just a 1mg sub or maybe 5mg of hydro it would all go away but im not going to take it. because im so afraid of starting all of this over again and thats the last thing I want to do. Even though I feel as bad as I do it doesnt feel anywhere as bad as it did when I tried to stop taking the hydrocodone. It just feels like its the same only its spead more thin and lasting longer. normal? any suggestions? maybe stop wining and bear with it?

.

**melinda7.5** · 03-22-2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by helz

Robert, you out there man? being day 7 off my 10 days of subs, do you think this is the worst of it? sometimes I feel almost ok, then others I feel BAD, like if I took just a 1mg sub or maybe 5mg of hydro it would all go away but im not going to take it. because im so afraid of starting all of this over again and thats the last thing I want to do. Even though I feel as bad as I do it doesnt feel anywhere as bad as it did when I tried to stop taking the hydrocodone. It just feels like its the same only its spead more thin and lasting longer. normal? any suggestions? maybe stop wining and bear with it?

.

Hi Helz
Roberts comcast is out right now...I just talked to him and he wanted me to tell you...That you can take a sliver...like .5mg...just a sliver to help with the w/d subs have a very long half life...you don't have to use again but .5 should help...dont take any more...but let him know how you feel after you do that....just post on here and I will tell him...
Talk to you soon, Melinda

**xxhelzxx** · 03-22-2009, 08:02 PM

thank you so much. Ive found that eating meat makes me feel better. Im am going to try NOT to take any but if I do break down, and thats only if I cant sleep tonight, Ill post in the morning how my night went. I can not get friggin warn, jees. oh and my insides have liquified so i took some amodum ad. again, thanks and ill post in the morning

**xxhelzxx** · 03-23-2009, 07:45 AM

morning 8. I layed in bed and could not be still so I got up and took less then .5mg. It was more like .4mg and it helped a little. I wasnt cold and I slept about 5 hours total. this morning I feel ok. my ears are still ringing which they have been since I started the subs on March 6th and it got worse when I stopped on march 15th. are the W/D's going to come back as bad as they were this weekend after taking that litle bit? and if so should I take another little sliver?

**melinda7.5** · 03-23-2009, 08:52 AM

Hi hels
no your w/d will not come back as bad I will talk to Robert and tell you exactly what to do. It would be like you are at the end of a taper tho I think.
I will get back with you after I get home from work.unless I talk to him this morning...
hang on well get you there

Talk to you soon, Melinda

**xxhelzxx** · 03-23-2009, 08:59 AM

you are the man Melinda. har. at least I havent lost my abbility to smile

Ill show you who I am once im well. im sure youve delt with simi celebs before?

**melinda7.5** · 03-23-2009, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by helz

you are the man Melinda. har. at least I havent lost my abbility to smile

Ill show you who I am once im well. im sure youve delt with simi celebs before?

I'm glad you can smile...that helps everything...
You would be shocked with all the people we deal with addiction...It just takes who ever it wants.
But we do send pictures back and forth all the time...
It's kind of fun to see who you are talking to and to see if they look like you thought they would...

Talk to you soon, Melinda

**xxhelzxx** · 03-23-2009, 09:34 AM

im the one in the picture who likes girls. no wait, that doesnt help. Im the taller of the two.

Man I hope Amanda never needs to come on here.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...80c46406f4.jpg

**melinda7.5** · 03-23-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by helz

im the one in the picture who likes girls. no wait, that doesnt help. Im the taller of the two.

Man I hope Amanda never needs to come on here.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...80c46406f4.jpg

Hey!! hels
I'm going to need more than that...click on my screen name and shoot me an e-mail..I will send you a pic of Robert and myself...
Amanda is my daughters name...
Robert told me to tell you if you need a sliver as needed its ok...im talking here and there tho not all the time...LOL
he likes to do a more detailed taper...this will work but just not as easy...
Talk to you soon...Im out the door to work...Ill be home around 2 I live in the pacific North west

Melinda

**magsj** · 03-23-2009, 03:15 PM

Dear Helz:

I have been following your posts regarding withdrawing from suboxone. I will be joining that club soon and have learned a lot by tracking your progress and the help you have received from Robert, Melinda and others. I envy you, your almost there. I don't know HOW you go to work with so little sleep and feeling so S****Y at times. I am sure you have to dig deep. Just a note to say "hi", congratulations on making it so very far! My motto is "keep your eye on the prize" which is LIFE fully felt, for better or worse!

I'll be tansitioning form Methadone to Subs tomorrow and will be in h*** by Wed and Thursday so the party is just starting. Reading your posts has given me a realistic picture of tapering from suboxone. This is helpful because I don't like too many suprises.

Again, hang in there you are doing great!

Mags

**xxhelzxx** · 03-23-2009, 03:21 PM

well Magsj, to add to todays posts, I started feeling really good at noon today. I hope it wasnt because of that sliver I took last night but its 3:20pm here and I still feel pretty good. Im really use to being up all night and getting up the next day. Ive been doing it for years. I am a recently retired musician. I know those late night and early mornings all to well. I hope your conversion goes smooth. Ill be sticking around here for a while.

**magsj** · 03-23-2009, 03:33 PM

Helz-

Ah, so you are a night owl by profession! I am glad you are feeling better today and I hope it lasts! Yeah it's 1:20 here and I am just biding my time until the methadone wears off and the battle begins...ugh. Fortunately, right now I am not working (worked in the medical field most of my life). I am taking a "sabatical" HA, some sabatical, and will be joining the workforce again but just part-time when I am stable.

I hope you have a good day today, whatever that is for you!

I kind of feel like I am going to the gallows!

mags

**xxhelzxx** · 03-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Day 9. slept about 6 hours last night. feel better this morning. The Dr that put me on the subs also put me on trazadone 50mg to help me sleep but it didnt do anything but make we want to cry when I watched just about any F'n movie so I didnt take it last night. I mean really, I would almost want to cry watching spunge bob square pants. I did some research on it and once again, another addicting drug with some super crazy w/d's "brain zaps" WTF??lol, so straight to the trash, well after I let it sit by the trash for a few days to make sure it doesnt wreck me by stopping after only 17 nights. no bad feeling yet and I hope it stays that way. and once again, MEAT makes me feel better, so ive been eating it at every meal. i just devoured a big meat breakfast barrito. Ive also been trying to get my heart hate up as much as I can. that also makes me feel better, check back later.

**musicman48** · 03-24-2009, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by helz

Day 9. slept about 6 hours last night. feel better this morning. The Dr that put me on the subs also put me on trazadone 50mg to help me sleep but it didnt do anything but make we want to cry when I watched just about any F'n movie so I didnt take it last night. I mean really, I would almost want to cry watching spunge bob square pants. I did some research on it and once again, another addicting drug with some super crazy w/d's "brain zaps" WTF??lol, so straight to the trash, well after I let it sit by the trash for a few days to make sure it doesnt wreck me by stopping after only 17 nights. no bad feeling yet and I hope it stays that way. and once again, MEAT makes me feel better, so ive been eating it at every meal. i just devoured a big meat breakfast barrito. Ive also been trying to get my heart hate up as much as I can. that also makes me feel better, check back later.

Hey Helz, Drinking chamomile tea and taking a hot shower before you go to bed will help you sleep a little better.There is also an herbal tea easily found called "sleepytime".It dose not have the same calming effect as jagermeister but it helps.Good luck bro! MM

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Yep its not easy

Helz-GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Melinda your great

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