[CrissyBlueEyes]

I think Subs are MUCH earsier to detox from than meth or opiates. Maybe you just had a bad reaction or perhaps were not mentally prepared fro the taper Bevck.

POP you have made it 4 days and already and are half way to feeling almost yourself again. Don't let anyone else's expeirences freak you out or make up YOUR mind about how YOUR detox is going to be. I read hundreds of posts before jumping and I was so scared by what I read I almost didn't do it. Come to find out it wasn't nearly as bad as people were saying.

Stay strong, stay positive, take it minute by minute. You will make it!!

Much love!

[chuckyboy123]

I have never used methadone in attempt to quit opiates, however I have taken it recreationally and was much stronger and the effects of methadone caused more euphoric feelings than suboxone ever has.

Anyway I am used to some discomfort when lowering because ever since 24mg I cut by 50% to new lower amount, staying at those levels for a couple months at a time. It has been a while on 2mg so I am going to measure what i have accurately so I can start a plan.

Again thanks for help from everyone I am going to need it.

[bev49]

Bevck, if you're thinking methadone is easy to come off of, you're in for a very rude awakening. Methadone is a long term treatment and it is one of the most difficult drugs to detox or taper from. After being on methadone for over 30 years, I can count the number of people I've seen actually kick it on their own. I don't doubt any story on here. I've just been luckier than alot coming down on sub. After 3 decades on methadone, I switched to subutex. I came down from a high beginning, 16 mgs. a day or so if I remember correctly, dropping 50% each drop, to 8, then 4, then 2 then 1. I had absolutely no ill effects whatsoever with any drop. I have since dropped to .75 again with no ill effects. I feel no worse at .75 then I did at 4. I think I even feel better on the lower doses. I saw very very few people taper off of methadone successfully although some did. It has to be done super slowly with drops at the end in 1 mg. increments. Since I am not off subs totally yet, I can't say its easier or harder than meth. I just know getting off meth was never even an option for myself or most people. Meth is for the long haul, making it hard to kick, sub, if done properly, is for the short haul, which would make it easier in my opinion

[nopiates]

Originally Posted by bev49

Bevck, if you're thinking methadone is easy to come off of, you're in for a very rude awakening. Methadone is a long term treatment and it is one of the most difficult drugs to detox or taper from. After being on methadone for over 30 years, I can count the number of people I've seen actually kick it on their own. I don't doubt any story on here. I've just been luckier than alot coming down on sub. After 3 decades on methadone, I switched to subutex. I came down from a high beginning, 16 mgs. a day or so if I remember correctly, dropping 50% each drop, to 8, then 4, then 2 then 1. I had absolutely no ill effects whatsoever with any drop. I have since dropped to .75 again with no ill effects. I feel no worse at .75 then I did at 4. I think I even feel better on the lower doses. I saw very very few people taper off of methadone successfully although some did. It has to be done super slowly with drops at the end in 1 mg. increments. Since I am not off subs totally yet, I can't say its easier or harder than meth. I just know getting off meth was never even an option for myself or most people. Meth is for the long haul, making it hard to kick, sub, if done properly, is for the short haul, which would make it easier in my opinion

Well, just thought I'd share my little story here. I've been reading plenty of suboxone detox stories on the web, and it seems too many folks have pretty incompetent doctors when it comes to helping them taper off from long-term suboxone use.

After being a pothead for 15 years, I got addicted to heroin and percocet, among other drugs, for about a year. Speedballs, chasing the dragon, black tar mainlining, you name it... Truly strung out for about 8 months, shooting smack 3-4 times a day at about $150 a day... I was lucky... I naturally had a low tolerance. However, it also meant I experienced withdrawals far easier than the friends I used with.

I finally decided enough was enough, and quit cold turkey on Xmas eve. I was in terrible dope sickness for about 4-5 days, then I was OK again. But then the cravings hit me. I had enrolled in rehab at my HMO, so my addictions Doc suggested taking suboxone while in group treatment. Well, I was at 16mg a day for about 8 months during all of that talk therapy stuff, and then decided it was time to start tapering. My Doc told me to reduce my dose by no more than 25% of the previous dose every 7 days, and if I felt sick to just wait another week before making another adjustment. It basically took me 10 months to get from 16mg per day to a 0.25 mg crumb per day (an 8th of a 2mg pill).

When I got to 4 mg a day, I felt great. I was alert, felt happy, had a sex drive again, and could see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. I guess Icould have stayed on that dose forever, but I wanted to know life for it's true ups and downs... I'd been high half my life already!

However, dosage changes below 2mg were very challenging. I'd feel quasi-dope sick for the first three days, then I'd feel fine the rest of the week. Once I got to the 0.25 crumb, I was sick all day until I took it before bed, then I'd wake up super early feeling like ******** again. After a week of that nonsense I called my Doc, and he explained that I was at such a low dose that it wasn't working long enough to prevent withdrawals anymore... he suggested it was time to take the plunge and jump off. He prescribed me clonidine and librium, and told me to take clonidine for at least two days before taking my last 0.25 dose of suboxone.

It's now day 7 after no suboxone, and although I still feel lame and can't sleep, I feel like I'm over the hump. I think the worst days were 4 and 5... yawning fits, watery eyes, running nose, restless/aching legs, panic attacks, insomnia, sweating, general flu-like symptoms and sudden bouts of crying at stupid things on TV. (!!) That said, it's not nearly as bad as heroin withdrawal... it's just lasting longer.

At day 7 I stopped taking the clonidine and librium, as the sluggish feeling they gave me was almost as bad as dope sickness... it's 6am and I haven't slept a wink despite taking a bunch of melatonin and GABA. I'm still yawning, got body temperature fluctuations, etc... I've missed work this whole week with "the flu"... luckily I've got an understanding employer. I'm going back to work in two days.

I saw my therapist today and he agreed that it seems the worst is over... we also thought it would be a good idea to get some different sleep aids that aren't habit-forming like the librium is... after all, it's a benzodiazapine, and the withdrawals from those can be pretty nasty even after just two weeks. Hence getting the melatonin and GABA from a local health food store... but now I think benadryl would have worked far better.

I'm hoping that by day 10 or so I'll be feeling myself again, and will be able to sleep normally at night, although I know that my brain will take a few months to really adjust to making it's own endorphins again. So, I'm going to ride my bicycle a lot, and try to do random enjoyable things like go to movies and eat nice meals out from time to time. All those things, especially the aerobic exercise, will hasten the brain healing.

The moral of the story is that suboxone helped to keep me clean for almost two years, when I wanted to relapse plenty of times. It aided my ability to go through addiction therapy, and to learn healthy stress coping skills. It helped me to unlearn the behaviors of an addict. The slow slow slow taper to a tiny 0.25mg crumb is the only way to go with this stuff, IMHO. You'll feel pretty lame for a week, but it sure beats staying strung out and penniless. The withdrawals won't kill you. You'll just be waiting for the suffering to end... Just stick through it, go for walks at night when you can't sleep... for pete's sake, don't lie in bed waiting to fall asleep, because you won't. But remember, it will pass. And then you will be free.

I hope my story helps somebody out there. Best wishes...

*A former dope fiend.

[purpledog]

thanks for that story. im on 4mg at the moment. its good to see people doing it, and succeeding. awesome. it can be done. you are proof.

purpledog

[bev49]

I just want to say one thing, kiwi. Everyone is different. You know my story, 10 years shooting heroin, 30 years on 80 mgs. meth, 3 years on 25 mgs. meth, now the sub. I realize some people havfe trouble getting below the 4 mg mark and/or the 2 mg. mark. I had neither. To me there was NO difference whatsoever between 4 and 2 and 1 and now .75. I swear to you. So, while some people do seem to havea problem its NOT a given so don't let the stories scare you. I imagine once I get down to the .50 and .25 it might be a challenge but really, although I was scared at each drop, I've felt exactly the same. On the other hand, I DEFINITELY believe in the slow and steady taper for people like us. No big rush. Slow and steady wins the race. But as you do go lower, you might be like me and have no problem at all.

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Day 11 is almost over! Today seemed kind of rough for me, chills, lethargy, sleepiness, almost like going backwards and it confuses me. I had been feeling awesome before today. My stomach is revolting against me for the first time as well. At least I am not on those subs anymore!

I hope tomorrow is a better day. I love all the positive posts on this thread as it keeps me from going back on days like this. Thanks guys, and I am sorry that I don't have very much that is good to say...

[purpledog]

what you did have to say was you got thru another day without using.

big ups to you pal. pat yourself on the back and do a good thing for yourself.

purpledog

oh and yep, bev so far i haven't noticed dropping from 12mg down to the 4mg so far, so im hoping its like this the whole way., woooo hooooo

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Day 12 off subs, much better than day 11! I feel better again, yahoo!

I slept pretty good but I am still fatigued feeling but it isn't horrible. Still get cold sweats too but they aren't horrible either, just a pain in the butt.

I just keep trying to stay busy and moving and finding things to do around the house and to get out when I can.

Thanks for hanging in there with me guys....I appreciate you all.

[bev49]

Yay for you, chrissie. 12 times is excellent. Keep up the good work. Realize that the bad feelings are only temporary. People like you are inspiration to me and others like me so just keep it up !!!

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Well into day 13...feeling pretty good today. Sleep stull sucks but I have been able to catch some cat naps here and there! I am not using clonidine anymore either. Just need sleep pattern and energy to come back to me!

[killer-oxy]

Dear Bev49 - great to hear you. I totally agree; all of us, our bodies ALL react differently to these drugs.

What happens to some will Not happen to others...

I know for myself that reading here TOO much (the horror stories) just fed into my own fears BIG TIME and gave me mind-freak *symptoms*.

We all need to watch out for that - I think this is a VERY important point!

Being alone makes it easy to slip into the fear - I was lucky to not have to spend the past 3 days alone as I normally am alone.

Someone also mentioned something I've been thinking but never mentioned. When the sex drive comes back; one HAS to know they are getting somewhat better! LOL I mean REALLY! And What better healthy way to get rid of stress ?

Crissy - WAY to GO! You are a true inspiration to me. I am still posting on my own thread I started for my taper but it is kinda lonely over there - so I gotta come over HERE to read you all.

Robert - if you see this, I did post on my thread tonight - I just got back.

Best to you all! ~Marilyn~
none.

[bev49]

Hi Marilyn, seriously speaking, sex is a great endorphin releaser. So when the drive comes back it means not only are you getting better but your helping yourself get even better still. If you check out Intel's thread he mentions several endorphin helpers, sex, good food, hot peppers believe it or not, and his favorite music (there were others I just dont remember now). As for fear, that is the No. 1 thing that stops people from getting straight I believe. I know its my problem. Each time I lower my dose, I feel like I'm jumping off a realllly high diving board or something, and yet, each drop, no problem... But then the stupid fear comes back. Anticipating something of often worse than the actual thing itself.

Chrissie, I meant Yay 12 DAYS, not 12 TIMES... Gotta proof read my posts before I hit enter

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Day 14-TWO WEEKS! Wow. I still do not sleep well but I know it will come back.

I feel pretty good because I have never completed anything like this is my life. It has given me the opportunity to show myself that I can do what I set my mind out to do.

And yes, those mind freaks are a trip. I had myself so worked up before I jumped that I almost didn't even do it. I can't imagine still being 'there' after being 'here'.

Thanks everyone, I lean on your posts everyday.

[killer-oxy]

Originally Posted by bev49

Hi Marilyn, seriously speaking, sex is a great endorphin releaser. So when the drive comes back it means not only are you getting better but your helping yourself get even better still. If you check out Intel's thread he mentions several endorphin helpers, sex, good food, hot peppers believe it or not, and his favorite music (there were others I just dont remember now). As for fear, that is the No. 1 thing that stops people from getting straight I believe. I know its my problem. Each time I lower my dose, I feel like I'm jumping off a realllly high diving board or something, and yet, each drop, no problem... But then the stupid fear comes back. Anticipating something of often worse than the actual thing itself.

Chrissie, I meant Yay 12 DAYS, not 12 TIMES... Gotta proof read my posts before I hit enter

Yes, as it is written, - Fear ought to be classed with stealing as it causes more trouble...

Amen to that - Fear - that Evil carrosive thread running through the tightwire of my mind.

I used to *feel* fearless....lol...what a Joke that is to me now. I was Never fearless - I just *felt* that way due to altering my body/mind with drigs. PERIOD.

Once I can deal with fear without chemicals, I will know I am truly getting a whole lot better. Just knowing that helps. The fear monster has to die.

I read that like 98% of the things ppl worry about never happen and that sounds about right.

Work in progress - This is all a process - Not an Event!

~Marilyn

[lanc24]

Okay its been about two weeks with me haven't taken any supports in four to five days. Still get cold chills and sweats.. Definately lesser than at beginning but it is still there.. One hour I will feel fine, and two or three hours later I'll feel WD symptoms.. I am super ready to be done with this.. Seems ridiculous how long these withdrawals span out. I flushed my suboxone at disgust over the drug.

[killer-oxy]

Hi - you said: "Okay its been about two weeks with me haven't taken any supports in four to five days."


What do you mean? No subs for 2 weeks and 4 to 5 days without any *supports* means any other chemicals?

Am I reading you correctly?

What dose of Sub were you on when you jumped off? And why would you flush them instead of following the taper plan? I am just wondering...you sound so disgusted with all of this and after I just posted this is a process no an event, I just thought I'd ask and see if you wanted to talk about it...

Don't mean to pry or anything...

~Marilyn

[killer-oxy]

Originally Posted by CrissyBlueEyes

Day 11 is almost over! Today seemed kind of rough for me, chills, lethargy, sleepiness, almost like going backwards and it confuses me. I had been feeling awesome before today. My stomach is revolting against me for the first time as well. At least I am not on those subs anymore!

I hope tomorrow is a better day. I love all the positive posts on this thread as it keeps me from going back on days like this. Thanks guys, and I am sorry that I don't have very much that is good to say...

Dear Crissy - what dose did you jump off at?

I am SO glad you are posting so I/we can see how it's going with you.

Now that I have it more *solid* in my brain about the mind-freak symptoms; I can clearly see that SO much of my symptoms have been (are) completely stress related.

I HAVE to keep the stress Way at Bay.

Hope everyone has a pretty good day! ~Marilyn

[lanc24]

Yeah it's been 13-14 days since my last suboxone.. I was taking 2mg a day for 3-4 months. Tapered down to 1mg for about two weeks prior. And took 5mg-10mg hydrocodone for about 3-4 days(that is five to ten mg per day) because of having to work or do something that needed energy. Haven't taken anything in nearly a total week and what I did take was very minimal. I'm a gym regular and try to stay active, I eat meals and protein shakes daily and drink water.. Probably not quite enough water but I try. I worked a twelve hour day yesterday and half the time I was feeling chills and sweats just making it totally uncomfortable I'm glad I have golf shirts which don't stain. Also I'm 23, I have taken OC and hydrocodone etc and dealt with withdrawal from those before.. They feel pretty bad, but are done with in 3-4 days usually.. I'm just ready for the chills sweats to go away... Makes me feel insanely uncomfortable.

[ddosher]

Ooooh I know your pain. I jumped at a lot more than that and had nothing for support but this forum. I was a MESS. Everyone is different though and if you are functioning at any level and trying to get excercise and doing protein as much as you can, you are doing the right things. How are you sleeping? By the time I realized what I had gotten myself into after stopping the subs it was already 7 or 8 days before I really was in FULL BLOWN withdrawal because of the long 1/2 life. At that point I wasn't going back. I just toughed it out.
I wish you the best of luck and I hope you are able to get through this without having to going back to the subs in order to taper properly.

[lanc24]

You couldn't pay me to take another sub I threw them away anyway because of withdrawal. I can't get good sleep unless I'm just worn out from a long day of work.. I tend to take supplements that contain caffeine before my workouts and on those nights it is even harder to sleep, hard to get comfortable turning throughout night sweating etc... But I have been somewhat of an insomniac for a long time so it's not too strange for me to stay up late... The cold sweats and chills just drive me crazy I'm just waiting to be able to go a day without sweating unnecessarily. Thanks for the support. God bless.

[Monsoon]

Hey Guys...Monsoon here-
Sorry I haven't checked in for a few days but my little one brought home the flu bug. I have been down for a few days!! I'm on day 15 off subs and feel good although my sleep hasn't seem to come back yet. My legs and arms aren't twitching anymore. This flu thing hit me hard,I thought I was hiitng w/d again.LOL This was that dry heave,shivers,can't eat anything flu!!! I'm on the end of it now. I hope everyone is doing good!!
Hang in there lanc!!!You are doing great!!
Chrissy....it sounds like you're almost done!! Great job!! We are only a day apart!
Robert,Intel,Melinda....I hope you are all doing well!!

Monsoon

[intelmetal]

Monsoon, 15 days off subs, you are past the withdrawals for sure. The general rule of thumb is 12 days ( MAX. ), day 7,8,&9 being the worst. You have done great!
Bev, Your getting close. Remember what I said, when you get down to .25mgs I will help you nail this thing. I will e-mail you the big secret !
Crissy, 2 weeks is amazing ! I had no idea how far along you were. You should be feeling much better now. Fantastic !!!
Lanc, another 2 weeker, what is going on here ? This is so awesome, this great group of people getting clean together !
Purp, you have made enormous progress in such a short time, considering that you are under close scrutiny. And what the heck are those "GLOW WORMS" hanging from the ceilings of caves in kiwi land ? They are spooky !
Marilyn, so your down to 3mgs, that is good, you are following the plan. We are all proud of what you are accomplishing here. I wish you the best with each reduction. Know that it will go well, and it will !
Later guys & gals
Steve

[killer-oxy]

You said to someone here - "Your getting close. Remember what I said, when you get down to .25mgs I will help you nail this thing. I will e-mail you the big secret "


I am NOT going to forget that because when I get there I hope you will promise me that you will tell me the secret too!:D

I am going to hang on to that!!!

NOW - everybody - I believe that Robert Really needs our prayers and good thoughts; whatever you all can muster at this time. He's in a rough patch and we need to be there for him now as he is always here for us...so let the good stuff FLY people!

Best to you all - I am certainly getting more positive. That's a good sign.

~Marilyn

[bev49]

Marilyn, Intel said that to me. I am almost tempted to make the drop right now JUST to find out what it is. He's already given some fabulous tips, such as sex, good food, hot peppers, good music, excercise. I would add hot baths and showers. Ah, to sit in a hot tub for several days to get through a detox... I am positively holding Steve to his promise of telling his secret.
Fear and anticipation are the enemies of getting clean

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Does anyone know how long it takes for sleep to return? This is getting ridiculious! 2-3 hours a night is not cutting it and I am begining to not be able function during the day.

I have tried meletonin, Ambien, Librium, clonidine, Soma, benedryl, NOTHING! I just cant seem to get any sleep at night. I am exercising, taking hot baths, everything I have read to do.

Day 15 now, I feel good in all areas except my eyes are always half shut and my mind is mush. I NEED SLEEP!

Thanks and congrats to everyone who is doing so well!

[nopiates]

Originally Posted by CrissyBlueEyes

Does anyone know how long it takes for sleep to return? This is getting ridiculious! 2-3 hours a night is not cutting it and I am begining to not be able function during the day.

I have tried meletonin, Ambien, Librium, clonidine, Soma, benedryl, NOTHING! I just cant seem to get any sleep at night. I am exercising, taking hot baths, everything I have read to do.

Day 15 now, I feel good in all areas except my eyes are always half shut and my mind is mush. I NEED SLEEP!

Thanks and congrats to everyone who is doing so well!

I know what you mean, Crissy. I'm at day 12 now, and I still can't sleep even after a cocktail of benadryl, melatonin, GABA and Valerian Root tea (all available at the grocery store). I get maybe 3-4 hours per night while twisting and turning in bed with weird dreams. During the day I still have nervousness, hand tremors, and cold sweats, but it seems the worst of that stuff is over. I'd just like to fall asleep like a normal person.

I figure good cardiovascular exercise is going to be a key here. I'm gonna start riding my bike to work again. It'll be a 45 minute commute that way, which at a gentle pace will help to retrain some of my pathetically desensitized opiate receptors.

Good luck with the sleep. I'll log back on when I've had a full night's rest. 'Till then...

[intelmetal]

Crissy, nopiates has the idea, and it works. If you are able to stay very active the majority of the day, with 2 decent cardio type exercises ( 1 in the a.m. & 1 in the p.m. ) you should get a good 6 hours of sleep. I find that when I take it easy and relax at home, I get about 1-2 hours sleep ( nap on couch ) during the afternoon and only about 4 hours sleep at night. Now if I work hard all day, breaking multiple sweats, I will get a solid 6 hours of sleep. This is improving with everyday that passes. Try drinking only water after 3:00 p.m. and do not overindulge at dinner time ( baked turkey breast and green beans work best ). I am shocked that the ambiem did not work, I tried it once a while back and it knocked me out. I personally don't like them.
The key is to exercise, eat small portions of nutritious food low in sugar, and time. It does take our bodies TIME to heal. Don't worry about it so much, you can program your brain by agonizing over it. Watch nature shows at night, not the ones with the animals of prey, but pleasant ones.
Hope this helps. You will be fine, Relax !
Steve

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Thanks for the info...I have been doing the exercise route, 3 hours per day, doesn't seem to make a difference. Oh well, guess I will just have to wait it out. Got to pay to play, right?

Thanks everyone!

[CrissyBlueEyes]

Originally Posted by killer-oxy

Dear Crissy - what dose did you jump off at?

I am SO glad you are posting so I/we can see how it's going with you.

Now that I have it more *solid* in my brain about the mind-freak symptoms; I can clearly see that SO much of my symptoms have been (are) completely stress related.

I HAVE to keep the stress Way at Bay.

Hope everyone has a pretty good day! ~Marilyn

Marilyn, sorry I didn't see this earlier. I jumped somewhere between .5-.25 mg. I say 'some where' because cutting the subs down to such little pieces, it was hard to tell exactly how much I was actually getting.