[Robert_325]

Janet,

Ralph made a good point about talking to your dr. I did not intend to sound like a dr....just sharing what I did. I doubt your dr will tell you to do what I did however. They all say to take a long time tapering off. What I shared has been working for me. That is all I know.

[JanetP440]

OK I think I'm getting a little confused. Since it's been 11 days since I've had any hydros shouldn't my w/ds be gone from the hydros? Why exactly are we taking the Suboxone? I thought that was just to get us thru the w/ds of the hydros. If time enough has passed for the w/ds of the hydros what purpose does the Suboxone serve? Why do we continue taking it? Understand what I'm asking? Thanks for your posts.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by JanetP440

OK I think I'm getting a little confused. Since it's been 11 days since I've had any hydros shouldn't my w/ds be gone from the hydros? Why exactly are we taking the Suboxone? I thought that was just to get us thru the w/ds of the hydros. If time enough has passed for the w/ds of the hydros what purpose does the Suboxone serve? Why do we continue taking it? Understand what I'm asking? Thanks for your posts.

You are asking a good question. Didn't mean to confuse you. Suboxone is really meant for people who are long term chronic abusers of opiates and can't stop without relapsing. And people who can't handle or don't want to go through W/Ds from opiates ( these people should stop Suboxone as soon as the hydro W/D pass ). In my case, after taking opiates like Hydros and Oxycontin for so many years, and having failed in the past at stopping from using, the Suboxone takes away our craving for the opiates and allows us to go about our business. My dr says I should stay on the Sub indefinitely so I don't relapse. This is why so many people continue taking it. I disagree however and agree with you. I don't want to take any drug if I don't have to have it.

The bad thing about Suboxone is that it also makes us go through W/Ds when we stop too, or so they say. Almost makes me wonder why I even started taking it in the first place if I am still going to go through W/Ds. It actually made me mad when I found out what I was taking and that I would still go through W/Ds. But the people who you read about here on this forum that are going through bad W/Ds from the Suboxone are mostly people who have taken it for an extended period of time. That is why I said you might be better served to get off it now, while you haven't taken it for very long and likely won't have to experience the bad W/Ds if you stop.

You will not go through any W/Ds now from the hydros. It has been long enough that they are out of your system. If you have any W/Ds at all, they will be from the Suboxone. I can't imagine them being bad though after only a couple weeks on Suboxone. You are like me in that you haven't taken this medication very long. I have had basically no to little W/Ds from the Suboxone and I doubt you would either. So I think you would be fine stopping the Suboxone. Hope that answers your question.

[HicksvilleNY]

thats it exactly I asked the same exact question,,, my dr told me it was for the cravings... i wish i stopped it that day,,, where you are now,

i have been taking it for 20 days (I thought it was longer)and i want to get off it asap although for some reason I'm struggling,

i am almost possitive its mind over matter for me at this point. I really don't know if i have felt wds or not I dropped another 2mg lower today and feel fine.I'm so used to taking something to feel normal, i think its just a habit I really need to break,

if you really want to be drug free and are determined to stay that way,

try not taking anything,

if you need some support we are here, or consult a counselor in your area


as far as the wds for vicodin as I understand it, it starts from 6-12 hours after the last pill....then gets gradually worse peaking at 36 to 48 hrs then slowly tapers for 2 weeks

[JanetP440]

I understand. I was taking anywhere from 20 to 30 10mg hydros a day just to function. I struggled with this 20 yrs ago but was only addicted (or only taking) hydro in liquid form such as cough syrup. I got off then by myself. This time I've increased my hydro intake considerably & took them for over 2 yrs each & every day. The w/ds this time were more than I could handle without some help. Therefore...Suboxone. I believe I'll try to do without my evening dose tonight & see how that goes. Might see if I need morning dose tomorrow. Not sure why I'm still taking them since physical part of w/ds are gone for the hydro. Last thing I want to do is get addicted to something else. Ya'll are super for posting everything ya'll are going thru. You've possibly saved me from another addiction. I'll let you know what happens when I don't take the Suboxone. Like I had said only been on the Suboxone for 7 days (including today). Ya'll keep on keeping on!

[Robert_325]

Well guys this is three days and all is well. I am now convinced that if I don't have any problems tomorrow then I think I am done with this insanity. I have absolutely no cravings, no W/Ds, no desire to get out my FULL bottle of Subutex at all. All of the worrying about the W/Ds and trouble stopping this medication was nonsense. It was all mental and that is a fact. I talked myself into believing that all the horror stories on the forum were 100% fact for everyone on this medication for any almost any period of time. I am just glad I decided to stop this when I did and not let it go on any longer. Now I can concentrate on other more constructive things in my life as long as this doesn't creep up on me tomorrow or Wednesday. I will be shocked if it does. Can't believe I could do these three days ( actually going into the fourth day )with no problem and have it affect me badly tomorrow where I couldn't handle it. I am keeping my calender open another day just in case and my fingers crossed. I won't disappear though even if I have no W/Ds tomorrow or the next day. I will post on the forum so others know they can stop this COLD if they really want to ... providing they do it before too much time goes by. I am sure that is the key. And of course I will be here too as you guys have supported me and I will try to do the same for you. Catch you tomorrow.

I was reading the "Thomas Recipe" for stopping this medication. He says the W/Ds don't hit bad until the end of the fourth day, which is tomorrow. We shall see. I still don't think this will be true for someone on Subs for a short time.

[Charliez]

Hi Janet, Welcome good to have you if only its for a short time. I hope you do well whatever you decide. I have been on the sub. for 6 months and if it possible which I believe it is to get hooked on sub. then I probably am seeing as how I feel I can't stop very quick but I do intend to get free. I am just waiting to go see this doc. wed. & talk about it with him. I have several ideas about how long & when I can get off of it hopefully with his input I will have a better understanding of my situation. Robert I am happy for ya I know you want off now & for you I believe the sooner the better because of the time involved with you well really all of you have not been on it that long but I am a little different story in a few ways. If I had it to over with what I know now I think I would being pushing to get off soon as my other addiction had passed wd's but that's not where I am now so I may need a different approach I don't know. I will just have to wait & see. Take care everyone ...Charlie

[HicksvilleNY]

had a bad night,,, woke up twice with this weird headache and feeling really strange and really whacked dreams.

scared the ******************** out of me... not sure what it was,,,if it was from the sub or not,, don't know, cut 2 mg back yesterday,

will stay with the cut back and see what happens today

[Robert_325]

Hi all,

Charlie, I agree with you considering the amount of time you have been on the Suboxone that it will probably require that you do a slow taper to quit successfully without W/Ds. I am sure that if I was in the same boat that is what I would do. I would not just throw down like I did. I almost decided to go that route myself anyway. Of course I am glad now that I took a shot at it the way I did. I am confident though that my time on the medication is the main reason I have not had a more difficult time than I have.

Ralph ... I had some dreams just like you are describing too. That is one thing I haven't really gone into. I honestly felt at the time that they were more from the Benzos that I was stopping (that is a W/D symptom for Benzos) and still feel like they played a part in the dreams. I was taking a lot of xanax and Klonopin for a long time. Perhaps however they were partially due from the Subutex if you are having them too. My dreams were totally insane and scary as well. The dreams could be from cutting back but I don't think they will last. Mine didn't anyway. I sleep great now with a sleep aid (Seroquel) that the Psychiatrist gave me. I think that if you are having any problems from cutting back that means you are making headway. Hang in there!

Janet ... I hope you are having a successful day today skipping doses. I still believe you can make your mind up to just throw down the Suboxone and stop cold with no problems except maybe a mental block about it. I would stick to my guns and just not do any Suboxone at all. You shouldn't have any dependency right now at all I don't think. You have been on it less time than I was.

Well I am in the fourth day right now, it will be over theoretically today by 4:00 as that is when I took my last dose on Friday. Even if I don't count any of Friday, this is still day four. So far so good. I will be back on later today to share and see how all of you are doing.

[JanetP440]

Hi Guys! Only took 1 of the 8/2 Sub yesterday & made it fine. Went to sleep but at 12:35 a.m. my stomach woke me up when it absolutely exploded! I puked everything I had put into my stomach yesterday out! Got up this a.m. & am refusing to take my morning dose of Sub. I have determined that's what is making me feel so weird & sick at my stomach. So...cold turkey here I come.

I will be back later & check on the rest of you. Being in D.C. & the Pope is here today so they've got practically every road & alley closed. Gotta go see how we're gonna get around this crazy place today. Take care everyone & I'll check on ya'll later.

Janet

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by JanetP440

Hi Guys! Only took 1 of the 8/2 Sub yesterday & made it fine. Went to sleep but at 12:35 a.m. my stomach woke me up when it absolutely exploded! I puked everything I had put into my stomach yesterday out! Got up this a.m. & am refusing to take my morning dose of Sub. I have determined that's what is making me feel so weird & sick at my stomach. So...cold turkey here I come.
Janet

Janet,

I commend you for your hard-headedness. That is what it takes. When I first stopped last Thursday, I had an upset stomach on Friday also. I was not as tough as you and took a little piece, maybe 2mg. I really did not have to but I did. I had no more problems after the stomach issue that first day. I doubt you will either. You are on your way. I have no doubt you will be Suboxone free just like me as of today. Congratulations!

[HicksvilleNY]

had an ok day,,,,, still fell sortta weird today from last night, head is cloudy,
just took half an 8 that makes 14 for today, if i can hold out that is my low water mark. i will give it may all,

I'm wondering if i have a sinus infection starting.. i get them all the time because of smoking and the dust from job, that would explain the headache,

Congrats Robert!!!!

I'll be joining you soon

[Robert_325]

Way to go Ralph! You are on your way I think. You are making your mind up to do it. I would talk to the dr about your sinuses. You don't need another illness adding to the mental hassles of doing this. That is really cool that you made today your lowest dose day. Doesn't matter how much it is, it is your best. Have to start somewhere!

[JanetP440]

Thanks Robert for the encouragement. Hell yeah I'm hard headed! Just wish I had been as hard headed when it came to the hydros.

Been Sub free today & stomach feels ok for now. I am, however, ill as a hornet. Could bite somebody's head off & spit down their neck!

Ralph (I believe that's who I'm trying to talk to)...I had headaches Fri & Sat but they have gone away. The dreams have also been weird. Kinda like they're in HD or something. I've even woke myself up sitting or proping myself up & be reaching out for something or doing something weird with my hands. That was better last night, too. I am still taking one .5 mg Xanax before bedtime instead of my usual two. I' ve also had my Effexor cut from 300 mg /day down to 150 mg/day.

Looks like I'm gonna make it through all day today without Sub. If I don't kill somebody & if I don't puke my guts out tonight, I'll try to go another day. But it's like somebody said...it's just not my habit to go all day without popping something! I'd pop at least 3-4 hydros every couple of hours before so now I'm fighting with NOT taking something. OK...I'm rambling.

Good luck to you all & will check back in a little while.

Janet

[HicksvilleNY]

I know what you mean about the habit of popping something every few hours.......

thats the hard part for me

[Robert_325]

I think we are all used to popping something way too often. If not we probably wouldn't be here. I may have made this sound like it was a piece of cake, but it has not been all easy. I haven't had any W/Ds, but it has been psychologically very difficult. I am used to having my RX bottles on my nightstand and taking 10 Lorcets, 6 Somas and a couple of Xanax bars as soon as I get up every day. It would be ozone city doing it first thing and throughout the day unless I had appts with clients. Then I would try and squeeze the clients in between my highs. That was pretty hard, the main reason I am semi-retired. Just can't live like that anymore. I had no real relationships with anyone, nothing spiritual in my life, nothing very good at all unless I want to count seeing my screwed up using friends. Enough is enough. I am too old for that ******************** anymore, fighting for my life basically. I am well done.

[HicksvilleNY]

I have found out i am past the point of a fast taper


the feelings i was having last night came back tonight only worse

pretty sure they are wds from the sub

very different from the vics,,,,, worse and for me very scary

yesterday i cut back 4 mg

I'm got very jittery,sick to my stomach and almost a feeling like i can't move.

i wasn't sure last night and tried to just stay in bed and sleep,,, i was able to do that.

was going to try to better that today with another 2mg

around dinner time i felt it,,same feelings, came fast, very unsteady feeling, sick to my stomach, nervous, and other weird feelings i can't explain. it was getting bad and scary, i wanted to be sure it was sub wds, so I took 4mg and within an hour i feel better,

I'm not sure but I think a fast taper is out for me

i go to the dr tomorrow and will tell him about this,

moral of the story is,,, there is a window between the time you start the sub and the time that you can no longer get off it fast, also I'm sure the amount taken will affect it.

Janet if you can get off it now,, do it

I need to know what you all feel when you cut back on this.

what do you feel like

Charlie, what happens if you try to cut back too fast, does this sound familiar to you?

this is a short term drug as far as I'm concerned... 1- 1 1/2 weeks
my opinion

I will keep trying my best and hope i can get off it fast , but tonight was a major, scary disappointment.

[Charliez]

I am very glad Robert you are doing so well & have your behavior under control you will probably be able to do things you had given up on . Just think if you were stranded somewhere & cut off from everything you could relax you are not dependent on anything & that my friend has set you free! I have said it before but will say it again your new found commitment to Jesus Christ has freed you. You were baptized only last week & if that is not a miracle well I am not sure what is. Janet have you seen the pope mobile around town? I am sure George is envyious. Now we will have to buy him one. I feel like everyone else quit now if possible be the best thing for you but you will have to be on guard against your addiction & would advise getting into a therapist or group to keep you honest. -just a powerful suggestion....Because if you are anything like me it will be very difficult to stay clean in the days coming. Some of us just plain old don't like being straight & dealing with the world straight ALL the time. It gets old as you probably know-But you can do it if you really want it. Ralph well buddy here we are . Only thing I had from cutting back was that old familiar leg ache & pain lower back & generally feeling wd's coming on. I fortunate for me had no dream problems to speak of . I have experienced that with some other things by taking them away but not this as of yet but then again I have not ever cut as much & as quick as you tried . I have really kinda accepted that it may be a while before I am able to get off this which I have only one problem with & that being having to depend on this sub plus having to depend on a doc. I have had that scare & it is not nice. That is giving them to much power over me . But I have not decided positively what I am going to do till I speak with the new doc. tomorrow. I have had that desperate feeling with the sub though weird stuff sometimes time flies by hrs go by without me noticing & like Janet I have to watch my anger it can come up real quick at nothing just being annoyed ..I have to be aware all the time ,sometimes I feel I could beat the %^$#@ out of somebody & I know that's not right...its really not like me to be like that. Kinda scary but I feel if I don't let myself go to far I can manage ..Sounds like we are experiencing a lot of side effects hu? I am with you on this being used short term but we may not have that choice -not to sure about anything right now ...Hope everyone has a good night --Ralph try and pray & short prayer before going to sleep & see if that helps if you do this I believe it will...that's all I can tell you ..Charlie

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by HicksvilleNY

I have found out i am past the point of a fast taper........................................

around dinner time i felt it,,same feelings, came fast, very unsteady feeling, sick to my stomach, nervous, and other weird feelings i can't explain. it was getting bad and scary, i wanted to be sure it was sub wds, so I took 4mg and within an hour i feel better..........................................

moral of the story is,,, there is a window between the time you start the sub and the time that you can no longer get off it fast, also I'm sure the amount taken will affect it.........................................

Janet if you can get off it now,, do it

I need to know what you all feel when you cut back on this......................

this is a short term drug as far as I'm concerned... 1- 1 1/2 weeks
my opinion

Ralph ... I think you hit it right square on the head.

I agree this is a short term drug. It should only be taken as long as it takes to get past opiate W/Ds if you want to stop that is. I am positive I stopped just in time or I would be addicted to it also. And you need to take as small a dose as possible to make the fast taper process easier. Common sense says a high dose will cause more problems when you stop than a lesser dose.

I felt kind of upset to my stomach and a little jittery or unsteady as you described it at first when I was trying to just reduce my doses significantly. That was what made me know I had to act immediately or I would not be able to stop. I didn't feel as badly as what you describe though, but I was only taking 8mg after the first couple days on 12mg. I'm sure your dose has made it harder on you than me even with the time you have been on it not being real long.

Don't beat up on yourself though. Just do your best and if you need to do a slow taper so be it. You are not a failure because you have to do a slow taper. Cut yourself some slack Dude.

Janet ... I'm sure you can see that stopping now and paying the price is more than worth it. If you go on taking the Suboxone for long you can see what you are in for as Ralph and Charlie are saying. Hang in there!

Sorry you have had a tough time Ralph. Just relax and do what you have to do. It's not the end of the world and you aren't taking the hydros. That is positive and a miracle if you are like me. Be glad of that.

Charlie you are so right about my renewed relationship with Christ. It has changed my whole being more than I can say. I know that has helped me so much doing this. I am so grateful for all I have received. I don't like to sound corny, but I was way out there not too long ago. I was basically worthless and fighting for my life. But I was totally spinning my wheels. I am just not the same person I was anymore, I don't think about the same things. It is really cool. And things are so simple now the way I look at everything. I am at peace.

Talk to you all later. Hope everyone has a good night. God bless.

[HicksvilleNY]

well i slept good, I'm going to keep fighting... I took 6 mg this am instead of my normal 8, if i get into trouble i will take a little more, I can't be a slave to this pill bottle anymore, I go to DR at 5:15 today, will tell him about all of this.

thanks for the info on the wds you have had from it

charlie, we can do this, let us know what your Dr says. I will and do say a prayer, i just do it in my own private way

Robert I any very happy you got there, you deserve it. never go back!

have a great day everyone,talk later

keep up the fight

[HicksvilleNY]

well went to dr today and he wondered why i didn't let him do the taper.

I told him i was taking the original 20mg a day and tried to jump down to 16 and had some problems, he only wants me to taper 2 mg a month for now.... seems slow to me but we will see how it goes, i just took what i was taking before for today I didn't need any problems today,
he game me a script for 300 2mgs 10 a day

I was pushing for 2s cause that way i wont be breaking up little pieces from an 8mg pill, will be more acurate.

all in all i feel good today and I'm ready for another month of getting healthy

hope everyone had a good day and I want to hear from Charlie to see what his doc said.

also, Janet, how are you doing?


later

[Charliez]

Stress & worry will put you down that's for sure. I am much better ,my overall well being has improved & I believe will continue. My new doc. has restored some of my faith in doc's. & that old familiar feeling of how & where am I going to get my meds. has gone away for now. Man that was ******************** , that other one didn't care at all , he was just in it for the cash- he was not any better than some dealer off the street (worse) . Remember me saying there is some charging 400.00 cash 1st. visit & 200.00 cash each month? They should have their licenses pulled. That's how pill mills charge. Just taking advantage. Anyway Ralph I figure the reason you tried it on your own was because you were worried & wanted off , it was awhile before you was to see your doc. but I know, this one said don't adjust on my own either. Up or Down. I was in his office for 2 & half hrs. he checked me head to toe ,took a lot of blood ,he is going to find out what is causing the rash as well as some other things he said looks like a year for me before even thinking about getting off. My chances of relapse will be less by then & I understand because if I would stop with the sub. & I felt very bad I could see where I would take something for relief. I just don't have the option of laying around sick all the time right now. But he said slow taper like you described is the best way . So are you staying with 2 less than you started with now? Or back to 20? I am back to 16 -2,8's every 12 hrs. But if I started at 20 or whatever I would be there also. I guess I am to far along to do a very fast taper & most professionals say I need the year plus I like this guy & believe him so here I am....let me know how you are doing ...Take care everyone ...Charlie

[Robert_325]

I am glad both of you guys are comfortable with where you are. That is the most important thing. Believe me, I understand that as an addict I really have to watch it. Just as Charlie was saying, if things get really tough I have historically been prone to relapse over and again. Just because I have stopped the Subutex successfully does not mean that could not happen to me again. I want to think that I have grown enough this time that it won't, but I am also smart enough to know that is what I do when I get corned, or have problems. I use. I always have. I don't know, it may have been better for me too if I had gone for a longer period of time to help guarantee that I wouldn't relapse. I just don't know if taking the Subutex longer would have guaranteed that or not for me. Nothing has ever worked before. I just felt I had to take the chance and go for it. I am going to try my hardest, but I am not going to forget where I came from and that I am an addict. I have to continue to do things like my NA meetings, talking to other addicts in recovery, but most important I have to work on strengthening and continuing to grow my relationship with God on a daily basis. I believe that is the way that I can grow myself and strengthen my resolve to finally succeed at staying clean. I can't forget that it's a battle I have to deal with every day. I do have my full bottle of Subutex, and should I mess up, believe me I will put myself back on them immediately. I hope that doesn't happen and that I can eventually throw the bottle of Subutex away. But rest assured that it is staying in my nightstand for a pretty long time, until I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that I won't need them ever again. I don't know when that time will actually come. For now I am clean and trying to stay that way as best I can.

[Charliez]

You are doing great Robert. I think you are doing the right thing for yourself & as long as we continue to do that we should be alright. We know right from wrong & we know when we are headed the wrong direction & the first sign of that we have to address it or it will end up consuming us all over again. It never goes away we just put it in it's cage for awhile & hope that it stays. That's when the work starts because now we have to do the things that will insure it stays put. For some that is easy but for us we have to work much harder. Only people who are like us really understand ...sermons over! But that's a true statement if I ever made one. Wondering about Janet hopefully she will get back with us. And Ralph is enjoying the great weather up there. Take care....Charlie

[HicksvilleNY]

awsome weather,,, i'm just taking it easy this weekend,,, some yard work maybe,,, not gonna push myself this weekend,,, i need a break

So charlie,,, what is it for you 8 in the am and 8 in the pm?

we are close,I'm supposed to be taking 20 total for the day.

today i did 10 in the am and 8 in the pm, i need to stay right there to sort of "level out". then drop the am dose to 8 next week so then we will be doing the same, which is ok, its where we need to be like you said,, but i think i will try again but just not such a big jump down this time, i tried to drop 6 mg and the second day of that is when it hit me.

i have a feeling Janet is free and clear,,,

man...

Robert, now janet too,,,,,,YOU NO SUBOXONE BASTARDS!!!!!!!! lol jk


later





hey what do ya know it let me say bastard,,,,hmmm

[Charliez]

That's ok but c*ap is not-lol. Ya 8 in the am around 6 then 8 more around 6 from what I read to get the full benefit out of this we need to find a leveling off place & stay there for awhile. That's the hole purpose I guess so our bodies can get used to it & at about the same time of day everyday if we fudge much it knocks it out of whack, at least that what I understood . We should be able to reach a point where we can't tell we are even taking it but with 6months I have always been able to tell I was taking it -most of the time...When I first started I would forget that evening dose until a little later that evening . I think that was because it was so strong at the first like anything else, we build resistance.....Later, Charlie

[HicksvilleNY]

its the resistance that bothers me a little ,oh well , i agree on the out of whack deal..... i think thats what happened to me the other day

[Charliez]

I do to because I was going up & down with it , felt weird. Before I started messing with it I was stable & felt OK ..I am now taking exactly as prescribed to try and get some normalcy back. That Dr. business really screwed up my therapy .I was doing great until the scare of running out & the big possibility of not being able to get anymore. That other Dr. really set me back a month he should have to answer for it but as usual there is not much I can do. The feds. have all these rules & regulations we have to abide by but the Dr's have to much lead way. They can put you on this & jerk you off as they want without regard to the guidelines. I read on the official gov. site where they are not to abandon you. Obviously that one just disregarded that part. They should be held to the rules same as us...He just moved to another town to screw up some one's else's life .Have a good one..Charlie

[Robert_325]

Charlie ... you are totally right about drs getting away with acting like they are free to do anything they like. I had taken Benzos for YEARS by prescription, several years, and if a person stops from Benzos cold turkey you can have seizures, you can actually die if stopping is not done properly. My dr got mad at me for taking more than I should, and I admit to that, but rather than even recommending treatment he just up and decided that I would get no more meds period. He just cut me off with no warning whatsoever. I started having TERRIBLE W/Ds symptoms, ended up having to buy them on the street until I checked in to rehab or I don't know what would have happened to me. A patient can mess up as we all know. A dr is not supposed to be a judge of a person's character or anything else, they are there to treat patients like they need to be treated. They don't have to keep giving you meds, but they can at least direct you to the proper care. Putting a patient's life in jeopardy like that is totally improper and unprofessional to say the least. I suppose I could file a complaint against him but I didn't.

[HicksvilleNY]

I suppose you could file some sort of complaint charlie, but I'm not sure what if any satifaction you would get from it,

Maybe this was supposed to happen, for a reason,, who knows.....

the main thing is that is past and now you can do what you need to do without worry,,

I know the feeling all to well of wondering how i would make it to the next refill or going into the PH and having them tell me with a smug look on thier face "Its too early"
Thank God those days are gone.


Robert? Hows things going for you????