[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by Charliez

............... give the half life time to catch up .I know the longer between cuts the better but I still don't know how the med. supply is going 2w out so I will have to speed it up just in case. Done alright except for waking around 3 not feeling very well & I thought as you Robert if I did not take it than it would catch up with me . I will see how it goes today. I guess because of this half life deal with the sub. that it can not be cut back as fast as other pain meds.

I agree Charlie. If we cut the dose too fast then a couple days into it we will regret it if I understand correctly from the posts I am reading. If a person is going to cut the dose a little faster I would only do it in the very beginning while there is still a substantial amount of meds in our system ... like now.

Ralph ... see what Charlie is saying??? If we are feeling well and just start cutting the dose as fast as we can in a few days when the half life catches up with us we will go into serious W/Ds. That is why I am reducing mine off slowly. Cutting the dose as fast as we can is not a true taper. I am not doing better than you I just started at a lower dose. You might take a little longer in the entire detox process than me having started at a higher dose like you did is all.

I think you could probably cut it pretty fast right now (as high as your dose is ) and just be prepared to suffer some W/D. Then take a little extra if it hits you (to get over the W/D) and get back on track then. This is probably the best time to reduce it faster if you are going to than waiting until the dose gets down very much.

I think my doctor is on top of how to administer the Subutex the more I read. It will be easier and a shorter run detoxing by paying the price in the very beginning and getting accustomed to that lower dose. Then a person can go into detox, or start reducing the dose, and have less meds hanging around in our system.

I ended up taking about 6mg yesterday. That is as close as I can guess considering I am just breaking pieces off the 8mg with no razor or cutter. I need to get one, especially as I get into lower doses. I will end up just crushing the little pieces in my fingers and having powder if I don't.

I will try to maintain at 6mg if I can with no W/Ds. If I feel any I will go back to 8mg till I see the dr next week. Will talk to you guys when I see you online.

[Charliez]

Yes I agree the lower dose one can stand at the very beginning is best. If you never take the higher dose then you don't have to get down from it. But see I didn't know any better, of course you know that already. Just like Ralph this is what the doc. prescribed he says he starts everyone out at 16 I am still at 14 today going to give it a couple of days then take off another 2. to 12. Like we said have to give it time to catch up & then we will see how we react. Ralph you say you are at 20 maybe you could ask your doc. to take you down a little have you talked with him about that? Especially since you just started. But that is your decision I know you want to take less . Take care.

[HicksvilleNY]

Originally Posted by Charliez

I had to take the 1/4 about 3a.m. but was still able to keep the last 1/4 off so that made 14 mg. yesterday . I think I should wait at least a couple of days before going lower to give the half life time to catch up .I know the longer between cuts the better but I still don't know how the med. supply is going 2w out so I will have to speed it up just in case. Done alright except for waking around 3 not feeling very well & I thought as you Robert if I did not take it than it would catch up with me . I will see how it goes today. I guess because of this half life deal with the sub. that it can not be cut back as fast as other pain meds. I guess cutting back by 2's would be better than by 4's be back here this evening hope you guys have a good day & take care!

thats great! keep going

well, I'm 4mg less right now than I was yesterday at this time yesterday
so a good day for me I think,

I think my problem is all mental, I find myself wanting to take this like it was Vicodin, small amounts more times a day,
after i get that sorted out I think i'll be ok,,,
if i can go the rest of the day like this i'll be happy

not real clear on what the half life thing is, and what it means?,,
what is vicodin half life and what is this?

[Robert_325]

Hey guys,

Looks we had a good day today. I am still hanging like you Ralph at the same place I was yesterday. I have taken about 3mg right now. I agree with you that it is just mental. Just like Charlie said ... you guys are just taking what the dr prescribed. A person doesn't know any difference if that is what they are told. I don't really understand why there is so much difference though in what these drs tell the patient to take. Doesn't seem right to me.

The half life is just how much of the drug is still in our system after a certain time. I know it takes about 4 days or so to really hit bad WD from Loricets or any Hydrocodone. This drug from what I read here says it is about 40% longer if I read correctly. So on days after that 4th or 5th day we should still have another few days to get into the bad WDs. But each of those days following, the Subs we take then also hang with us for that extra time. So if we actually stopped when the WDs started, we would theoretically have another 40% longer in days or so to go, but as we taper we still have the extra drugs in our system. The reasoning being for tapering is obvious ... to avoid the WDs. At least that is how I understand it. I saw a post that explained it really well. Seems like in the drug category, not this one on conditions. I think that is where it was.

[HicksvilleNY]

dr initially gave me a bunch of 2s on day 1

one week later instead of taking a bunch of 2s he gave me a 60 8s to go with my 2s which = 20mg a day, 2-8s 2-2s = 10+10 = 20mg a day

thing is,, if i follow that, I would run out of 2s before the 30 days???

so my plan is to be tapered to 16 by the time i run out of 2s

There might be 20or so 2mg pills in the one bottle, so my goal is to be down to 16 in 10 days

as long as i never take more than 2 8s in 1 day i'm good

thats 4mg in 10 days i think its doable,,, i wanted to go faster but listening to you guys and having trouble yesterday I think this is the way to go,

at least thats how i feel right now... i so confused by all this and a little depressed that i'm still "hooked" on pills.

I hope when you guys get there you wait for meeeeeeeee..lol

[Robert_325]

Heck Ralph ... we are all a bunch of pill heads. We would not be here if something wasn't wrong. But we are trying to do something about it. Cut yourself some slack. You are doing good. At least you are giving it your best shot. I am heading to an NA meeting momentarily. Catch you guys in a couple of hours. Cya

[HicksvilleNY]

this might sound simple and dumb.... but this really seems to work for me,

during the day, i find my mind wonders to the "pill" area of my brain,, and I say to myself in my head "Don't Think about it" and go back to what i was doing... it may sound simple but it really kinda works, for me anyway,

BTW still less than yesterday

[Robert_325]

Sounds like me. I can't help but to be thinking about it this week. That is why I semi-cleared my schedule, so I could focus on this. It hasn't been easy. I have been doing a lot of reading on different parts of this forum the last few days, I go to NA meetings, I do everything I can to keep my brain going down the straight and narrow path.

We are all going to be successful at this I know. I have no doubt it is helping us all to have our little group. Groups are just stronger than each of us individually. It always helps me to have to be accountable at least some. And I am way too easy on myself if I don't watch it closely.

Later guys.

[HicksvilleNY]

made it to the end of the day ,,, new one tomorrow

[Charliez]

Man I can see this is going to be a slow process. But I have managed to stay at 14 for 2 days but I can feel a big difference as to the way I feel in the late, late evenings. Everything is back to normal meaning like I felt before I started reducing my dosage when I take the 8 in the mornings, pretty much anyway. But like you experienced Robert my sleep is suffering some . I think during the time that we are changing our doses we are like back into the induction phase & have gotten away from our maintenance phase. This is why we feel bad . I hope today & tonight my body will get better accustomed to the 14 then I can cut 2 again. Will check back later to see how you all are doing---hang in there -we have to do this it is the only way....take care........

[HicksvilleNY]

i kinda feel the same way this am,,, glad its the weekend soon,,,

[Charliez]

That's what we are saying about the half life you really won't be able to tell much for a few days then you will know more about how you are feeling at that amount of sub....it takes a couple of days for the reduction to catch up---you are ok...main thing is we are trying & that's about all we can ask of ourselves-right? So what mgs. are you at today? I just have so much on me right now I really can't believe I am dealing with it all as well as I am. I guess when we have to we do. I hope to feel much better in a few days & my situation will change for the better then I will be able to deal better with the sub. Something has to give.

[Robert_325]

Last night was kind of tough. I woke up about 1 AM the first time. I was still sleepy but could feel the half life of the Sub hitting me after cutting back like I have the last few days. I was definitely wanting some more Sub. I kind of suspected this would happen, but now I know what to anticipate when I reduce the dosage. I dealt with it all night ... would sleep an hour or so and it would hit me again. It went that way all night. I did not give in and take any meds though.

I know that this is the only time I will be able to make 2mg reductions, while I am taking larger doses. I need to take advantage of it while I can. When I got up this morning I did go ahead and take about 3mg again. I feel better now. I just wanted to see how my body would react to a 2mg reduction. I can handle what I dealt with last night. I don't like it, but it wasn't horrible....just a pain in the butt. I've been through a whole lot worse for sure.

I am curious to see if I experience the same thing tonight trying to sleep or if I can now maintain at 6mg with no hassles. If it goes ok with the 6mg tonight, I will plan on staying here for another 7 days or so I think. I will then knock off another 2mg and try it again. I will try to hold it at 4mg for about 3 weeks and give myself time to heal up some more before trying to reduce it again.... then another 2 mg. That will be when it likely starts getting tough. I know that the final 4mg will go much more slowly than this last 4mg has gone if I don't want to go into bad W/Ds, which I don't if I can do it like I have so far.

[Charliez]

Sounds like a plan . Felt pretty good this morning with the 8 but as time wore on the more I felt like I was dragging so I guess this is the waiting period. Plus my back has been acting up today from an injury a few years ago & the wet weather here which is what got me on the pain pills in the first place. When I was maintained with 16 I felt better but since cutting the sub. I have this pain with it which may get better the longer my body has time to get used to it for a day or 2. The sub. has an pain relieving effect on me . So even after completely stopping the sub, I am not sure how I will do with any pain that is something I will deal with later because my desire to be opiate free is strong. This is day 3 on 14mg. I feel I should be feeling the full effects now or in the next day or 2 because of the cut. next is go to 12. Seems no matter what dose you are on if you cut it any you will feel it.

[Charliez]

Now on a little better note, I have been tied down all week & this is the first time I have had a chance to get out & ride my motorcycle it is warmer but trying hard to rain it is just sprinkles right now but I do not want to get caught out in it. When I ride I forget about everything ,it is good therapy always has been. I need it terribly bad right now. If I get a break in the rain I am going for it.......

[HicksvilleNY]

I stayed the same today as yesterday 16mg and feel fine,,,
tomorrow I will go for 2 less again or at least try,,,,,,,

this is going to be harder than i thought but I think its all in my head..

can i possibly be that far into the sub having taking it for just over 2 weeks 20mg a day, that I would have bad WDs already?

what if i stopped tomorrow?
would I really go into really bad WDs?


those are the questions I have

how long have you guys been taking the sub?

I just want to stop now

[Robert_325]

Ralph,

I started on Subutex in rehab about 3 months ago. After a bad dental problem I ended up having to take pain meds again or go crazy with awful mouth pain in February. I don't think anything is worse than toothaches. I then stopped the Subutex, waited for a few days and started back on the Loricets. Damn I wish that hadn't happened. Of course, I did not get back right on the Subutex. I had to have one more little run for almost a month. Then I got back on the Subutex about 2 1/2 - 3 weeks ago. Funny, I asked my dr the exact same question as you just asked today. He said for my quitting purposes, as far as W/Ds go and all, that I should consider myself on them now for the2 1/2 -3 week period, to blow off the first go around that I blew. So it's about 2-3 weeks for me.

I certainly would not try to talk anyone into not quitting. Just think about the problems you have had, I have had, Charlie has had and the other people here. My dr told me that the plan we all made for reducing is exactly how we should do this. He said this medication is made for people like us who have other things we need to do ... not just lie around in detox. This allows us to go on about our lives, said that was why he prescribed it for me, that he doesn't just automatically put everyone on it. Like I said, it's your call, and I had the same questions exactly. That is just what my dr said about 3 hours ago.

[HicksvilleNY]

ok cool
so what kind of full blown WDs could I expect stopping tomorrow after 20mgs for 2 1/2 weeks

BTW i got electicuted and fell off a ladder into the street, hurt my back thus the Vicodins
man I thought I was dead, i was fixing a flouresent sign and hit the live ballast wires,, i was stuck to the ladder and could not let go... to this day i don't know how I ever got lose from it, I really thought that I had bought the farm, annnnyyywayyyy

thats what i need to know, how bad could they be this close in to the start?
and

what are the wds, feeling wise?
same as Vicodin? different?
the unknown scares me

[Robert_325]

I feel exactly like you do. That is why I asked the dr today. He said I wouldn't die, but I would go right back into W/Ds like I was when in rehab. Don't know if you have been in rehab for opiates. You won't die but you feel like you are going to.

Sorry about the electric shocks. I got it bad once standing in water working in a chemical plant LONG TIME AGO. I was maybe 22 or so. I swear my whole body felt like I was just fried for a week.

If I could just clock out, be somewhere really relaxing like maybe a nice quiet beach somewhere, I would probably go ahead and do it before we got anymore time in this. I almost decided to today. I guess I kind of let myself talk me out of it. I could probably be talked back into it though. I checked myself into rehab a few months ago as I was sick of it then, so I have been wanting to just stop and been thinking about it for a while now.

You going to do it?????

[HicksvilleNY]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

You going to do it?????

good question, I hope i can really taper down tomorrow being an "off" day

I would like to go down by half but don't see that happening,but may try


to answer your question,,, I am seriously considering it,,, seriously..
I want my real life back

if i knew what would happen ... if i knew it would be not as bad as the vics I would, thats why I wonder about just being on these 2 1/2 weeks.


so far i haven't been that good at this yet, you guys are making progress and i feel i'm not,

[Robert_325]

Like I said, I know I was starting W/Ds this morning and almost did it too. I have a lot to do this weekend. Think I let that talk me out of it and now I am back to normal again as I took my meds.

I think W/D will be at least as bad as Vics even with a short run. I really do, based on how I felt last night trying to sleep and this morning. I could really feel it starting. maybe I am just talking myself into that ... obviously I don't know. Don't think anyone can tell us for sure. I know we could do it, it will just suck. Won't die, will just feel like it. You know what that feeling is.

[HicksvilleNY]

ok cool thanks,,,,,


do you guys get the sweats?

i wake up soaked


and i guess everyone has problems with No.2 lol

[Robert_325]

ALL OF THE ABOVE!!! LOL W/D is really a drag. I hate it. I know from what others have said that a slow taper off Subutex/Suboxone is manageable. It just depends if one wants to deal with this that long. I don't know. Not ready to jump in all the way tonight. I know that. I need to think about this. I will be kicking it around in my head.

[HicksvilleNY]

see i have never WD-ed from it yet so I don't know what to expect... if i knew what it felt like i could decide easier



I did take 2 more delcolax than I did yesterday though

[Robert_325]

I know none of us have done a WD from Sub. Have you done a WD from Vics?

Dulcolax is almost as bad as this stuff is. LOL I hate it too. I think I may have to drag some out pretty quick though. This stuff is ruff on us!

A cut by 50% would really be encouraging. I would be very happy if I was down to 4mg. I should have done that today. I just have some serious commitments on Sunday where I really need to be at my best. Thinking hard about this.

[HicksvilleNY]

i know the commitment thing,

i was volunteeredto install a family members kitchen cabinets on sunday

then everyday is an adventure at work,

I'm really going to try and make a big dent in this thing tomorrow....
stay tuned

[Robert_325]

Good luck ... you can do it. Think I have ended up at a little over 6mg today... maybe even 7mg or so. I broke one earlier and it was not very accurate. Don't think that 1mg will matter very much at this stage in the game for one day. Then I broke down a little bit ago and bought some single edge razor blades. That will work fine for me. Hang in there. Catch you later. Have two appointments tomorrow. Going to go kick back. ZZZZzzzzz

[HicksvilleNY]

havent taken any yet

[Robert_325]

You going to go for half today, completely stop or try to just maintain? I took about 3-4mg. Have a couple appointments early today. Then I will be back. Think I am going to hang at my 6mg until I see the dr on Thursday.

[HicksvilleNY]

not sure yet.... its 4 hours later than my usual first dose time.

I normally take it at 6-6:15

I stayed in bed late on purpose,

I would really like to now how long it takes for the wds to set in and if they do will taking a dose stop them.

its been 15 hours since my last dose

with the vicodin the longer i pushed it between doses the less i would need