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Subox..done
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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Default Subox..done

    Thank you for your response Henry...when i started taking the subs I had absolutely zero education/knowledge of what they were, how they worked and so on.

    Like I said in the other Thread I have had what I would guess is .25mg a day since Monday, the only issues I have had so far have been the stomach issues and anxiety...today i was going to wait until 3pm, but the anxiety and inability to focus got the best of me. It's been a little over an hour and a half since (from best i could measure) was at most .25 (just a couple specks) still feeling the anxiety...but not unbearable at the moment.

    Thank you for your help Henry...and no, no more roxies.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Thank you for your response Henry...when i started taking the subs I had absolutely zero education/knowledge of what they were, how they worked and so on.

    Like I said in the other Thread I have had what I would guess is .25mg a day since Monday, the only issues I have had so far have been the stomach issues and anxiety...today i was going to wait until 3pm, but the anxiety and inability to focus got the best of me. It's been a little over an hour and a half since (from best i could measure) was at most .25 (just a couple specks) still feeling the anxiety...but not unbearable at the moment.

    Thank you for your help Henry...and no, no more roxies.
    Hey Shldveknwn,
    Anxiety and stomach issues go hand in hand. Detoxing from opiates can cause those symptoms along with others. I won't advocate the use of benzo medications, ativan, valium, etc..., for the anxiety but many folks do use them. I must warn though if one goes that route to use them if an only when absolutely needed. One does not want to get hooked on benzos for to get clean from benzos it is way worse than any opiate detox and the symptoms are not only worse but last far longer even after being clean. Benzos also can not be stopped abruptly meaning no cold turkey as C/T with benzos can be fatal.
    Imodium helps with loose stools. Make sure to stay very well hydrated during an opiate detox as the body has a tendency to become dehydrated. I am currently conducting an experiment with some folks that suffer RLS badly to consume a sports drink before bedtime to see if there is any difference in their RLS and so far there seems to be something there on that subject. Interesting to say the least but a lot more data and subjects would be needed. Staying hydrated though will not harm anything and will be beneficial all the way around anyway.
    Exercise helps greatly as you burn off much of that excess adrenaline which exacerbates anxiety. Also it gets you tired so you sleep better and if you are having sleep issues it really helps tone them down. During a detox many times we don’t feel like doing anything and will just sit around and be depressed, worry, get anxious, worry some more and if things get bad enough mentally and emotionally cry for seemingly no real reason other than how we currently feel at that moment. A huge part of the battle during a detox is to get our method of thinking changed from thinking inwardly to outwardly. We have a tendency to focus on the within ourselves instead of what is out there. I know easier said than done and I do know what it feels like.
    Try to stay consistent with dosages. Once you stabilize stay at that level for at least 4 days then reduce the dosage by 25% and stay at that new level for 4 days. Since you are taking so little already you may want to just taper down to nothing and won’t need to skip days at the end.
    Keep posting and let us all know how you are doing. Others will be chiming in as you move along.

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks Henry...I appreciate the warning on the benzos (which i assume xanax falls into that category). Since Monday I have tried to dose the smallest possible speck I could, and it seemed like it was going to be ok until today (which could be in my head). I think I got it to where I am feeling pretty good right now and my best guess is somewhere just a little more than .25 mg.

    What is the best way to be consistent with the dose? Like I have seen you say numerous times that when dealing with such a small dose it starts to get difficult to manage exact dosages, what would be the best way for you to describe what .25mg should look like? I have the 8mg orange pills.

    The anxiety and the inability to focus are the toughest for me so far. I am currently running a construction project at a high school and students move in Friday...yeah that's two days from now! I like cutting it close I guess and giving my self a challenge.

    Thanks for your help, and I can't believe I told someone that I take pills??? Just need to be done and don't have time to feel like junk for a week, but again I guess I deserve it and that's where the "shldveknwn" comes from, my mom enjoyed being a nurse with access to IV pain meds and after getting caught she found the pain clinic for several years and ran out every month in a week or two. So off to rehab I would take her, sat through all the meetings, counselling etc. with her. I knew better, but I'm the good kid and far to good for any of that junk to happen to me.

    Sorry for the rambling. Just needed to vent and feel like an idiot.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Thanks Henry...I appreciate the warning on the benzos (which i assume xanax falls into that category). Since Monday I have tried to dose the smallest possible speck I could, and it seemed like it was going to be ok until today (which could be in my head). I think I got it to where I am feeling pretty good right now and my best guess is somewhere just a little more than .25 mg.

    What is the best way to be consistent with the dose? Like I have seen you say numerous times that when dealing with such a small dose it starts to get difficult to manage exact dosages, what would be the best way for you to describe what .25mg should look like? I have the 8mg orange pills.

    The anxiety and the inability to focus are the toughest for me so far. I am currently running a construction project at a high school and students move in Friday...yeah that's two days from now! I like cutting it close I guess and giving my self a challenge.

    Thanks for your help, and I can't believe I told someone that I take pills??? Just need to be done and don't have time to feel like junk for a week, but again I guess I deserve it and that's where the "shldveknwn" comes from, my mom enjoyed being a nurse with access to IV pain meds and after getting caught she found the pain clinic for several years and ran out every month in a week or two. So off to rehab I would take her, sat through all the meetings, counselling etc. with her. I knew better, but I'm the good kid and far to good for any of that junk to happen to me.

    Sorry for the rambling. Just needed to vent and feel like an idiot.
    Hey Shldveknwn,
    The best way is to use an accurate scale but not everyone has a lab type of scale.
    The easiest way to measure the 8mg orange pills (yep that is suboxone alright) is to use a pill cutter first. If you do not have one then get a flat piece of glass, marble counter top, mirror, picture frame glass, or anything resembling something flat with no pores that you can cut, chop and grind up pills on. Start by splitting the 8mg tablet in half. That gives you two pieces of 4 mgs each. Then take each half and split in half again. Now you have 4 pieces of 2 mgs each. Take each 2 mg pieces and cut in half again. At this point it is already starting to crumble so save those crumbs and dust as you will use them. Now you have 8 pieces of 1 mg each. Now since the 1 mgs pieces looks more like a jagged pieces of a broken tooth only orange in color the easiest way is to take those 1 mg pieces and if you can't cut it up evenly just crush then and grind them into powder. Make sure each 1 mg pile is seperated from the others as you don't want to mix up the piles as it will throw off the math. Split each 1 mg pile in half and you will have 2 halves of .5 mgs each. Now take each .5 mgs pile and split in half again and those individual piles will be .25 mgs. Put each .25 mgs dose in a container and save it. Don't do this in front of others as they will think you are cutting up lines of coke or something and speaking of which DO NOT SNORT SUBS ESPECIALLY SUBOXONE! I know you won't but I have to warn people I help anyway. If you carry your dose around with you make sure if you can to put it in or have with you your prescription bottle. Last thing you want is to be pulled over for something and for what ever reason have a fold of subjective substance looking powder found on you and try explaining that to an officer what you are doing with ground up subs. If you have the script bottle all the better for obvious reasons.
    If you take .25 mgs per day stay with the .25 mgs for at least 4 days to make good and sure you are stabilized. If you sometimes take .25 mgs on one day and other days take another .25 mgs pretty much .25 mgs total is probably not enough for you and you may want to increase your .25 mgs per day up by .125 mgs for a total of .37 mgs and you get that .125 mgs by splitting the .25 mgs piles in half again. What you are trying to do is find that balance of your threshold for stability. Once you achieve that then that will be your starting dose which you stay on for 4 days to make sure you are stable at that dose then reduce every 4 days by 25%. Don't go over 25% reductions and although some folks have done it they are exceptions to the rule and you don't want to find out the hard way that it won't work for you.

    You stated that since Monday you were taking the tiniest speck of sub until today. Today is right about that half life threshold so you now know what I mean by it usually hits around 3 to 4 days out when the half life starts to run out.
    Balance and consistency is the key working with subs. Never more or faster. This is a process not an event.

    Hope that helps

    Henry
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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Thank you for everything Henry...I don't know how you actually get any real work done during the day. Once I get done with this I will try to find the best way to introduce my mom to this forum, she is currently taking the 8mg sub 2 or 3 times a day and has been for a couple years, she has a complete quack for a Dr. and not just for the reason of the large sub dosages...thanks again for all of your help.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Thank you for everything Henry...I don't know how you actually get any real work done during the day. Once I get done with this I will try to find the best way to introduce my mom to this forum, she is currently taking the 8mg sub 2 or 3 times a day and has been for a couple years, she has a complete quack for a Dr. and not just for the reason of the large sub dosages...thanks again for all of your help.
    Fortunately I am fairly adept at multi tasking so I have two monitors in front of me with about 18 windows open and working most at the same time. LOL!
    Taking 16 or 24 mgs of sub a day is way too much and there is no reason to be taking that much. She will feel so much better when she is off of them. Sharp, alert, responsive, will sleep better when things calm down and everything will improve. It gets me so angry that doctors and medical professionals listen to the drug companies. I firmly believe that any medical professional that is licensed to script subs should be a former addict themselves and have gone through the treatment and taper so they will know what they are talking about. It is all too easy for them to sit back and say it is like this or that. Ever notice they don't even say "it should" anymore? It is like they are 100% positive that it is supposed to be a certain way. My own sub doctor way back when wanted me to start off on 32 mgs a day myself! Even back then when I knew nothing of subs I thought that too high so started myself on 16 mgs which also was way too high. When I first got here back in summer 2009 I was a train wreck. Long story short is Robert inducted me at, get this, only 1.25 mgs per day total! Far and vast difference than what a so called medical professional postively stated I must start at. Also that I would have to be on 32 mgs for a few years before I could even begin to start thinking of a taper and that most people have to take subs for the rest of their lives. How insane is that? I started my taper late Sept 2009 and November 11th, 2009 I was clean. 6 weeks is a vast difference than a few years much less a life time. Since then I actually introduced this site to my sub doctor and I respect him because he admitted that the only training they receive is a short one or two day class or online correspondence courses to get certified and these are put out by the drug manufactures. He had no idea that tapers could be done so quickly with so little sub. It is the drug companies that come in and tout that it has to be this way or that way and even at that they are only stating what they have been taught and told. No one has practical knowledge of the proper use of subs in the professional field which is sad. I say make them be addicts first and the tune of the medical profession will change from money, money, money to care, care, care!

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    I couldn't agree more, from reading on here it seems like these Drs have no clue about this stuff. I sure wish I would've known more a year ago. Anyway, last night was pretty good, woke up this morning feeling the anxiety, stomach issues and nausea (probably from the anxiety). As the morning has gone on I am definitely feeling better, but still fairly anxious. Today will be day 4 with the small dose (depending on where Sunday middle of the night falls?).

    Here is my thinking...I'm a younger guy with a pretty high metabolism, if I dose again today and tomorrow with around .25mg at noon and then maybe try to skip on Sat? Or should I stay at .25mg until the anxiety subsides and then start skipping? Or just taper all the way down like you had mentioned before? I know I haven't exactly followed the taper plan since I was probably up in the 1mg - 2ish mg and just kind of went down to as little as possible, but since I've been able to dose so little for 3 or 4 days hopefully this will work.

    Thank you again for your time and help...and I have the two monitors in my office as well, makes a world of difference.

    I know not to rush it just want to be done with this stuff.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    I couldn't agree more, from reading on here it seems like these Drs have no clue about this stuff. I sure wish I would've known more a year ago. Anyway, last night was pretty good, woke up this morning feeling the anxiety, stomach issues and nausea (probably from the anxiety). As the morning has gone on I am definitely feeling better, but still fairly anxious. Today will be day 4 with the small dose (depending on where Sunday middle of the night falls?).

    Here is my thinking...I'm a younger guy with a pretty high metabolism, if I dose again today and tomorrow with around .25mg at noon and then maybe try to skip on Sat? Or should I stay at .25mg until the anxiety subsides and then start skipping? Or just taper all the way down like you had mentioned before? I know I haven't exactly followed the taper plan since I was probably up in the 1mg - 2ish mg and just kind of went down to as little as possible, but since I've been able to dose so little for 3 or 4 days hopefully this will work.

    Thank you again for your time and help...and I have the two monitors in my office as well, makes a world of difference.

    I know not to rush it just want to be done with this stuff.
    Good morning Shldveknwn,
    I would stay on .25mgs for a few more days to make sure you are stabilized. You were taking various amounts and although not large amounts they still varied so we do not know your stabilization point just yet. Normally .25 mg is pretty much the level at which point you start skipping days but that is an individual call and some folks prefer to taper down a bit more. My recommendation for you would be to stay at .25 mgs for a few more days to see how you are doing at a regular measured dose. Once you feel you are stabilized I would taper down by 25% to the next level and remain there for 4 days to see how you react to a regemented taper. If all goes well from that point it would be your call whether you wish to skip days or continue to taper down either to nothing or to a jump off point.
    Key element is stabilization and consistency. Once you find out how you react on a known dose you have a much better idea on how to proceed.
    Hope that makes sense.

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    Good morning Shldveknwn,
    I would stay on .25mgs for a few more days to make sure you are stabilized. You were taking various amounts and although not large amounts they still varied so we do not know your stabilization point just yet. Normally .25 mg is pretty much the level at which point you start skipping days but that is an individual call and some folks prefer to taper down a bit more. My recommendation for you would be to stay at .25 mgs for a few more days to see how you are doing at a regular measured dose. Once you feel you are stabilized I would taper down by 25% to the next level and remain there for 4 days to see how you react to a regemented taper. If all goes well from that point it would be your call whether you wish to skip days or continue to taper down either to nothing or to a jump off point.
    Key element is stabilization and consistency. Once you find out how you react on a known dose you have a much better idea on how to proceed.
    Hope that makes sense.

    Henry
    Hey Henry,

    Hope you're having a great Friday. Feeling pretty good today with the exception of lack of energy. Slept pretty good last night, just woke up a little early with some RLS that continued for a couple hours this morning and then cleared up. I think I'm starting to level out, hopefully. I think I will take your suggestion and give it a few more days, I'm at about 5 days so I should be right about there, correct?

    Have a great weekend my friend.

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Hey Henry,

    Hope you're having a great Friday. Feeling pretty good today with the exception of lack of energy. Slept pretty good last night, just woke up a little early with some RLS that continued for a couple hours this morning and then cleared up. I think I'm starting to level out, hopefully. I think I will take your suggestion and give it a few more days, I'm at about 5 days so I should be right about there, correct?

    Have a great weekend my friend.
    Oh...and thanks for the help...even if it did come from a wuss .

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Oh...and thanks for the help...even if it did come from a wuss .
    Hey Shldveknwn,

    Wuss here. Hey that kind of has a nice ring to it. Actually I really do find it kind of funny. I've been called a lot of names but never wuss. LOL! Most people see what I look like and run because I have been told I always have this look like I want to ripe someones head off but I'm such a wuss I would never do that! ROFLMAO!

    Serously that is great you got some sleep. It used to bug the heck out of me and stress me to no end when I couldn't get any sleep. Man there were times I would just toss and turn trying to sleep thinking I need to get some sleep I have to work and the more I thought about it the worse it got. Sleep actually is one of the very last things to straighten itself out when clean. It will come back and if you exhaust your mind and body enough you will conk out naturally anyway so no sense stressing over it. Melatonin, comes in 3 and 5mg size, is a natural supplement and works well for some folks. Sometimes it works for me and some times it doesn't. Still trying to figure that one out myself. Sleepy time herb tea is another one that works.
    Sounds like you are stabilizing. I would give it until Sunday to make sure then taper down from there. No rush as this really is a process not an event. Many times folks will bounce around on dosages then start a taper immediately with negative effects. That is mainly due to not having stabilized themselves mostly.
    You could actually jump and skip days from .25 mgs but something in my gut just tells me to taper just a bit more with you. You don't have to taper far as you are on .25 mgs anway but at least one or possibly two more levels then skip from there. Some folks just stop taking subs at .25 mgs but I don't recommend that as skipping days allows your system to start to adjust to life without subs due to the long half life.
    Hang in there buddy you are doing great!!!

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    Hey Shldveknwn,

    Wuss here. Hey that kind of has a nice ring to it. Actually I really do find it kind of funny. I've been called a lot of names but never wuss. LOL! Most people see what I look like and run because I have been told I always have this look like I want to ripe someones head off but I'm such a wuss I would never do that! ROFLMAO!

    Serously that is great you got some sleep. It used to bug the heck out of me and stress me to no end when I couldn't get any sleep. Man there were times I would just toss and turn trying to sleep thinking I need to get some sleep I have to work and the more I thought about it the worse it got. Sleep actually is one of the very last things to straighten itself out when clean. It will come back and if you exhaust your mind and body enough you will conk out naturally anyway so no sense stressing over it. Melatonin, comes in 3 and 5mg size, is a natural supplement and works well for some folks. Sometimes it works for me and some times it doesn't. Still trying to figure that one out myself. Sleepy time herb tea is another one that works.
    Sounds like you are stabilizing. I would give it until Sunday to make sure then taper down from there. No rush as this really is a process not an event. Many times folks will bounce around on dosages then start a taper immediately with negative effects. That is mainly due to not having stabilized themselves mostly.
    You could actually jump and skip days from .25 mgs but something in my gut just tells me to taper just a bit more with you. You don't have to taper far as you are on .25 mgs anway but at least one or possibly two more levels then skip from there. Some folks just stop taking subs at .25 mgs but I don't recommend that as skipping days allows your system to start to adjust to life without subs due to the long half life.
    Hang in there buddy you are doing great!!!

    Henry
    Good morning Wuss -

    Hope you had a good weekend, mine was pretty great. Got some good rest and worked around the house quite a bit.

    I've been feeling pretty good the last few days, still trying to decide if I want to taper down some more today or just have today as my first skip day. I haven't really had any symptoms other than some stomach issues (which isn't anything new and could be from anything), mild tinges of RLS (nothing bad in the least, just a little tingle every now and then) and woke up a few times last night (not terrible by any means). I've seemed to have decent energy which makes it soooo much better.

    I'll see how I feel a little closer to lunch, which is when i have been dosing.

    If I do decide to skip today and figure out that I should have tapered down a little more what is the best course of action? Should I tough it out until noon tomorrow and go with the 25% lower dose? Do I take .25mg and then taper down the next day? I could be wrong, I just don't think it will be too bad (famous last words) since I didn't exactly taper to .25mg and just decided to cut it way back to there from the beginning.

    Anyway, sorry for the wordy randomness, just let me know your thoughts. Have a great Monday!

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Good morning Wuss -

    Hope you had a good weekend, mine was pretty great. Got some good rest and worked around the house quite a bit.

    I've been feeling pretty good the last few days, still trying to decide if I want to taper down some more today or just have today as my first skip day. I haven't really had any symptoms other than some stomach issues (which isn't anything new and could be from anything), mild tinges of RLS (nothing bad in the least, just a little tingle every now and then) and woke up a few times last night (not terrible by any means). I've seemed to have decent energy which makes it soooo much better.

    I'll see how I feel a little closer to lunch, which is when i have been dosing.

    If I do decide to skip today and figure out that I should have tapered down a little more what is the best course of action? Should I tough it out until noon tomorrow and go with the 25% lower dose? Do I take .25mg and then taper down the next day? I could be wrong, I just don't think it will be too bad (famous last words) since I didn't exactly taper to .25mg and just decided to cut it way back to there from the beginning.

    Anyway, sorry for the wordy randomness, just let me know your thoughts. Have a great Monday!
    Alright Wuss, here goes nothin....I'm gonna give it a whirl and see if i can skip today. I don't really have any symptoms to speak of at the moment and right about now is when I have been dosing. I'll keep you posted and let you know how it's going as the day progresses. Anything I need to lookout for? I've heard to one day skip isn't too bad, it's the two day skip to lookout for?

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Alright Wuss, here goes nothin....I'm gonna give it a whirl and see if i can skip today. I don't really have any symptoms to speak of at the moment and right about now is when I have been dosing. I'll keep you posted and let you know how it's going as the day progresses. Anything I need to lookout for? I've heard to one day skip isn't too bad, it's the two day skip to lookout for?
    Hey Shldveknwn,
    Sorry for the late reply. We had a safety violation at one of the railroad ramps by one of our guys this morning and someone was almost killed so I was dealing with that from very early this morning.
    Since you are at a steady .25 mgs it is your call at this point whether you want to skip days or not. You can either taper down further or start your skipping days and it all depends on how you feel. If you feel you can handle it them go for it. You are so close now anyway that if it were me I would just bit the bullet and go for it. If you get in a jam you can always take a sliver but in doing so you will need to start that portion of the skipping days over again. Example: You skip today then dose and say you are into the 3 days skipping. On day two or three you for some reason just feel you need to take a sliver and you do all you do is start that portion of the 3 day skip over again and complete that portion and continue is all.
    Hang in there you will make it! Keep my posted on how you are doing ok?

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    Hey Shldveknwn,
    Sorry for the late reply. We had a safety violation at one of the railroad ramps by one of our guys this morning and someone was almost killed so I was dealing with that from very early this morning.
    Since you are at a steady .25 mgs it is your call at this point whether you want to skip days or not. You can either taper down further or start your skipping days and it all depends on how you feel. If you feel you can handle it them go for it. You are so close now anyway that if it were me I would just bit the bullet and go for it. If you get in a jam you can always take a sliver but in doing so you will need to start that portion of the skipping days over again. Example: You skip today then dose and say you are into the 3 days skipping. On day two or three you for some reason just feel you need to take a sliver and you do all you do is start that portion of the 3 day skip over again and complete that portion and continue is all.
    Hang in there you will make it! Keep my posted on how you are doing ok?

    Henry
    Awesome! I'm still feeling pretty good, not feeling any need for it at the moment. I'm pretty excited to give it a go!

    What kind of work do you do? Are you a safety consultant or do you work for the railroad? Safety rules are there for a reason, and it's like dealing with kids sometimes..."put your hardhat on" "where are your safety glasses" "do you really think you can use a chair instead of the ladder right next to you?"

    Yeah, I deal with that quite a bit also.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Awesome! I'm still feeling pretty good, not feeling any need for it at the moment. I'm pretty excited to give it a go!

    What kind of work do you do? Are you a safety consultant or do you work for the railroad? Safety rules are there for a reason, and it's like dealing with kids sometimes..."put your hardhat on" "where are your safety glasses" "do you really think you can use a chair instead of the ladder right next to you?"

    Yeah, I deal with that quite a bit also.
    I actually wear many hats. I not only work for a trucking company in Sales/Operations but am also the Port of Oakland's Trucking liaison meaning I get to play with all the big toys with the 7 harbor terminals we have and their ships and the 2 railroad yards we have here. I am responsible for safety and security in the entire area from our end of the industry so I am kept pretty busy running around, attending meetings, emails, phone calls, you name it. Whether it is an oil spill from the vessel that the "bridge hit" (LOL! That is the running joke that the ship was hit by the bridge not the other way around and it was the SF-Oakland Bay bridge an 8 mile bridge that somehow managed to move and hit the ship) to train derailments to containers falling off ships to that news casters airplane that crashed in our dirt lot I am always one of the first responders so I have a pretty interesting job. I also get to put up with all the rift raft around here because the office is located in one super bad part of town. Funny thing is when I get home Melissa asks me how my day went and my response is always the same and that is "same old thing different day. Nothing exciting. Want to go out to dinner and maybe a movie afterwards?" If I tried to explain everything I do it would take up pages and that is probably just the first few minutes after I walk in.
    You know though no matter what happens at work with all the crashes, derailments, truck flip over’s, fires, explosions, ships ramming the pier, planes landing on the highway, cranes taking out an overpass, what ever what I find best out of everything and what really gets me excited is when I see people beating addiction. NOW THAT IS REALLY COOL!!! That also is what makes me REALLY happy! I just imagine the joy they feel when free from this burden and guilt and they go on to live healthy and productive yet happy lives. Man there is no high like that and all without substance abuse! Talk about a natural high!
    I feel that you will be fine with this. It won't be symptom free but nothing you can't handle. It may get that feeling of being dicey but just keep reminding yourself that it is the bad guys (addiction) you are killing off and they are fighting for their lives too and losing so they are going to turn up the heat and try to turn the tides of this battle but you won't give in. Sweating, RLS, Anxiety will most likely be your worst symptoms for you. Sleep issues, digestive issues and depression will run a close second in your case. There are many things that can be done to help. Sweating not a whole lot as just keep a hand towel handy and drink ice water, stand in front of a fan, take a cool shower but it will usually pass in a couple/few minutes. You can feel it coming on as you start to feel flushed and a prickly feeling will creep up for some on the back of your neck then you realize that your chest is becoming sticky then the beads of sweat start forming on your forehead. RLS can be kept in check although it may break though with exercise, hot baths, and vitamin supplements. There are prescription meds that help also and although I don't like recommending them Requip which is mainly a Parkinson’s medication it is also used for RLS. Only take when absolutely needed as it comes with it's own side effects which one of the worst is morning headaches. It can make some sleepy too so go very easy on them. They recommend 3 tablets per day but that is standard for those with Parkinson’s and yours is not the case so one tablet about 20 to 30 minutes before bedtime will suffice. Anxiety some folks take benzos but if you do go VERY EASY with those as YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET HOOKED ON BENZOS!!! Benzo withdrawal makes an opiate withdrawal seem like nothing and the symptoms are much worse, last months and can be longer, and can be fatal if cold turkey’d so they MUST BE TAPERED OFF OF. Anti anxiety scripted benzo class meds you only want to take the minimum amount necessary only enough to take the edge off. You don’t want to take it to the point you feel just fine as then it just masks everything. Just enough where you still feel the symptoms but can function is all and no more. Sleep issues can be helped with melatonin and they come in 3 mg and 5 mgs size. They are a natural supplement and can work pretty rapidly so only take before bedtime about 10 to 15 minutes before. A nice hot bath before bedtime also helps and also is great for aches and pains that many feel during a detox. Sounds simple and silly but they do work. I practically lived in my tub and after a while didn’t bother to drain the water but just reheated it as I was in there for just a soak so much. Digestive issues as you know you can use Imodium. Also stay hydrated. It sounds strange that we have to intake fluids as expelling fluids is the problem but we must replace what we lose and also a sports drink helps as it contains the electrolytes and minerals needed. The body is strange in that when it feels it needs to flush out things that shouldn’t be there the smooth muscle tissues in our gut do not contract in a rhythmic order so it creates a propulsion movement that is not coordinated so everything is rushed through our colon hence the liquid waste. Bulk fiber helps also among many other things but you probably already know this. Depression can be helped with natural exercise and getting out there and doing things. With depression we have a tendency to think what is “in here” rather than what is “out there” so we focus inwards when we should be focusing outwards. Little things become magnified so we exaggerate and generalize things into what we fear so anxiety and depression often go hand in hand with one or the other underlying oftentimes.
    I really don’t see much more happening with you so just hang in there and go for it. You will be clean before you know it and all this will just be history!

    Henry

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    shldveknwn is offline Junior Member
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    It really is quite exciting! Thank you so much for all the tips and pointers...I hope I will do just fine for the next 22 hours! Last week was a little rough and I was fine, so hopefully I can push myself a little and take a little discomfort and make this a lesson learned in the books.

    I truly appreciate all your help, time and effort you have given me and so many others.

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    HenryNCBA is offline Advanced Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    It really is quite exciting! Thank you so much for all the tips and pointers...I hope I will do just fine for the next 22 hours! Last week was a little rough and I was fine, so hopefully I can push myself a little and take a little discomfort and make this a lesson learned in the books.

    I truly appreciate all your help, time and effort you have given me and so many others.
    If you get in a bind or anything just holler. Just remember that with subs less is more and when in doubt don't take just wait for instructions. If you do take do not take more than a sliver over your daily dose as it can seriously complicate things.
    In the meantime get out there and enjoy your life because this portion of it will soon be history and you will move into a newer and better chapter!

    Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryncba View Post
    if you get in a bind or anything just holler. Just remember that with subs less is more and when in doubt don't take just wait for instructions. If you do take do not take more than a sliver over your daily dose as it can seriously complicate things.
    In the meantime get out there and enjoy your life because this portion of it will soon be history and you will move into a newer and better chapter! :d

    henry
    wahooo!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    If you get in a bind or anything just holler. Just remember that with subs less is more and when in doubt don't take just wait for instructions. If you do take do not take more than a sliver over your daily dose as it can seriously complicate things.
    In the meantime get out there and enjoy your life because this portion of it will soon be history and you will move into a newer and better chapter!

    Henry
    Gooooood Morning Henry -

    Well skip day one is almost in the books! All in all I can't complain a bit, no real symptoms at all except only a few hours of broken sleep last night (no stomach issues, no RLS, no anxiety etc.), just no sleep! And what's really kind of strange is I don't feel crazy exhausted. This was the first night that my sleep really seemed to be affected, wonder why that is?? Anyhow, do you think I should continue with the day skipping (take today and skip two etc.) or just try and give it a good jump? I know with the long half life and past experience it has only been almost 48 hrs so symptoms typically take a little while to manifest, but I do feel pretty good.

    Give me your thoughts and we'll decide what to do. Hope you're day is great and let me know if I can do anything for you. Thank you again for everything! I'm pumped to be this far already!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Gooooood Morning Henry -

    Well skip day one is almost in the books! All in all I can't complain a bit, no real symptoms at all except only a few hours of broken sleep last night (no stomach issues, no RLS, no anxiety etc.), just no sleep! And what's really kind of strange is I don't feel crazy exhausted. This was the first night that my sleep really seemed to be affected, wonder why that is?? Anyhow, do you think I should continue with the day skipping (take today and skip two etc.) or just try and give it a good jump? I know with the long half life and past experience it has only been almost 48 hrs so symptoms typically take a little while to manifest, but I do feel pretty good.

    Give me your thoughts and we'll decide what to do. Hope you're day is great and let me know if I can do anything for you. Thank you again for everything! I'm pumped to be this far already!
    Good morning my friend!
    I would continue with the skipping days process. Take today and skip two days. People often think that the taper is the most important part of this process but the skipping days is just as important as it gets your mind/body in line to life without subs. Overall view is the taper phase reduces the amount of sub in your system by decreasing the meds over a specific time frame that your system becomes accustomed to. The skipping days phase slowly eliminates sub using time. This is why you do not see a tapering of quantity during the skipping days process. One of the gauges used to determine if you are ready for the skipping days is how you feel which is very important and why Robert and I always mention to everyone that once a person hits that .25 mgs per day level it is their call whether they wish to continue to taper or start the skipping days process. We can not feel what you are feeling so that call is left up to the person that is tapering. The skipping days process is using time that lengthens in a controlled manner so it is very important to follow this as it gets your system accustomed to life without the short term effects of subs and about the 2 to 3 days skip that half life is about due so your system adjusts to life with depleting amounts of sub. During the taper you have a daily constant supply of sub in your system albeit a reduction every so many days. This skipping days process depletes the sub levels by depletion of subs itself. Trust me it is well worth the effort to complete the skipping days process which I know you will do but I just wanted to mention.
    Subs short term effects has already hit you as you see a change in your sleep patterns. You will see other changes as well but what exactly I can not say as everyone is different. If you get into a jam you can always take that sliver but you will need to start that portion of the skip days over. Most folks seem to feel a bit more around the end of the 2 day skip. Tough it out as you will be dosing the next day for the beginning of the 3 day skip which many folks find easier. Physically and metabolically this stands to reason for when you start taking away subs out of your system your metabolism speeds up. Hence the bad guys "addiction" goes into overdrive looking for the subs. Kind of like when you get hungry you start looking for food. So when you go shopping for food you know food is closing in so your stomach starts to growl and you feel the hunger pangs increasing. So when food is there you want to gobble up everything in sight. This is why they say it is not a good idea to go food shopping when very hungry as we have a tendency to want food that has instant energy and is very tasty and unfortunately this is usually sweets and filling carbs. Ever go to a restaurant when hungry and instead of just ordering a regular meal you include appetizers because you are staving? Then you can’t finish your regular meal? Then you discovered you were going to order desert too? LOL! Same thing here. The addiction is looking for the missing subs but through the taper and skipping days process the addiction is weakened so much that after completing the process it is so weak that you can defeat it without subs or anything because you were processed through the worst of it and seemingly can just walk away from it. This is a very vague and generalize outline but about sums it up.
    Let me know if you get into a jam. I seriously doubt you will feel anything much more than you already are and if you do it won’t be anything you can’t handle.
    Keep me posted though.
    You really are doing one kick butt job on this and I really am proud of you and your progress!

    Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    Good morning my friend!
    I would continue with the skipping days process. Take today and skip two days. People often think that the taper is the most important part of this process but the skipping days is just as important as it gets your mind/body in line to life without subs. Overall view is the taper phase reduces the amount of sub in your system by decreasing the meds over a specific time frame that your system becomes accustomed to. The skipping days phase slowly eliminates sub using time. This is why you do not see a tapering of quantity during the skipping days process. One of the gauges used to determine if you are ready for the skipping days is how you feel which is very important and why Robert and I always mention to everyone that once a person hits that .25 mgs per day level it is their call whether they wish to continue to taper or start the skipping days process. We can not feel what you are feeling so that call is left up to the person that is tapering. The skipping days process is using time that lengthens in a controlled manner so it is very important to follow this as it gets your system accustomed to life without the short term effects of subs and about the 2 to 3 days skip that half life is about due so your system adjusts to life with depleting amounts of sub. During the taper you have a daily constant supply of sub in your system albeit a reduction every so many days. This skipping days process depletes the sub levels by depletion of subs itself. Trust me it is well worth the effort to complete the skipping days process which I know you will do but I just wanted to mention.
    Subs short term effects has already hit you as you see a change in your sleep patterns. You will see other changes as well but what exactly I can not say as everyone is different. If you get into a jam you can always take that sliver but you will need to start that portion of the skip days over. Most folks seem to feel a bit more around the end of the 2 day skip. Tough it out as you will be dosing the next day for the beginning of the 3 day skip which many folks find easier. Physically and metabolically this stands to reason for when you start taking away subs out of your system your metabolism speeds up. Hence the bad guys "addiction" goes into overdrive looking for the subs. Kind of like when you get hungry you start looking for food. So when you go shopping for food you know food is closing in so your stomach starts to growl and you feel the hunger pangs increasing. So when food is there you want to gobble up everything in sight. This is why they say it is not a good idea to go food shopping when very hungry as we have a tendency to want food that has instant energy and is very tasty and unfortunately this is usually sweets and filling carbs. Ever go to a restaurant when hungry and instead of just ordering a regular meal you include appetizers because you are staving? Then you can’t finish your regular meal? Then you discovered you were going to order desert too? LOL! Same thing here. The addiction is looking for the missing subs but through the taper and skipping days process the addiction is weakened so much that after completing the process it is so weak that you can defeat it without subs or anything because you were processed through the worst of it and seemingly can just walk away from it. This is a very vague and generalize outline but about sums it up.
    Let me know if you get into a jam. I seriously doubt you will feel anything much more than you already are and if you do it won’t be anything you can’t handle.
    Keep me posted though.
    You really are doing one kick butt job on this and I really am proud of you and your progress!

    Henry
    That makes perfect sense and now that I think about it I have seen the question asked many times on here. You get one day down and not really feel anything and think you have it in the bag and that's when the enemy comes at you I guess. Like you said, it's a process, not an event. It's just starting to really disgust me to put that $hit under my tongue! (WHICH I LOVE THAT IT DOES DISGUST ME!)

    And its also funny that you mentioned food/appetite...I ate more last night than I have eaten in months!! I don't know what it's like in CA, but I've seen that you mentioned hunting before and I fried a package of deer steaks last night and ate three whole steaks and then still ate dessert! Man did it feel good!

    Hope you're day is going great and thank you so much for all of the advice and help. You're a true friend even though we hardly know each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    That makes perfect sense and now that I think about it I have seen the question asked many times on here. You get one day down and not really feel anything and think you have it in the bag and that's when the enemy comes at you I guess. Like you said, it's a process, not an event. It's just starting to really disgust me to put that $hit under my tongue! (WHICH I LOVE THAT IT DOES DISGUST ME!)

    And its also funny that you mentioned food/appetite...I ate more last night than I have eaten in months!! I don't know what it's like in CA, but I've seen that you mentioned hunting before and I fried a package of deer steaks last night and ate three whole steaks and then still ate dessert! Man did it feel good!

    Hope you're day is going great and thank you so much for all of the advice and help. You're a true friend even though we hardly know each other.
    I hear you about that taste of the subs. At first I thought "okay king of a little bit of a strange licorice type taste" then as I neared the end of the program I just wanted to spit it out which I didn't of course. Kind of like drinking a lot of water. At first it tastes (water has taste?) good when it is ice cold on a hot day. Then after several mouthfuls you just want to cool off and hydrate. After the first half of the glass you start sipping. By the time you finish it you really don't want a second one.
    Deer steaks are tasty and actually much better for you than store bought meats. Lean and full of protein. By the way speaking of protein I am doing a study on symptoms reduction and currently am working with weightlifters and body builders. For some reason they don't feel the aches and pains as much on a much longer term just prior to and after working out. That had me stumped until I compared what they consumed. Each of them take a blend of protein powder for muscle growth and stamina complete with amino acids and other essentials for muscle recovery. These are not anabolic steroids but rather the high protein shakes you see in all the stores. They take it before a work out and after. The next day they feel the aches and pains but it isn't the aches and pains from the work out but rather from the detox. About an hour after taking the prework out shake they noticed that during their work out the pain is gone. They also take a shake after work out also. Two of them work out in the morning and both have said that by the afternoon the pain returns which is probably about when it depletes out of their system. This is all speculation of course as I only have a few to work with. They all get injured so get pain meds hence addiction for those into that sport I would imagine so one referred others to me. Too bad I didn't have hundreds to work with as I find this very interesting. I will talk to Robert about this also and see his take on it as he has way more experience than I do working with subs. Interesting though.

    Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    I hear you about that taste of the subs. At first I thought "okay king of a little bit of a strange licorice type taste" then as I neared the end of the program I just wanted to spit it out which I didn't of course. Kind of like drinking a lot of water. At first it tastes (water has taste?) good when it is ice cold on a hot day. Then after several mouthfuls you just want to cool off and hydrate. After the first half of the glass you start sipping. By the time you finish it you really don't want a second one.
    Deer steaks are tasty and actually much better for you than store bought meats. Lean and full of protein. By the way speaking of protein I am doing a study on symptoms reduction and currently am working with weightlifters and body builders. For some reason they don't feel the aches and pains as much on a much longer term just prior to and after working out. That had me stumped until I compared what they consumed. Each of them take a blend of protein powder for muscle growth and stamina complete with amino acids and other essentials for muscle recovery. These are not anabolic steroids but rather the high protein shakes you see in all the stores. They take it before a work out and after. The next day they feel the aches and pains but it isn't the aches and pains from the work out but rather from the detox. About an hour after taking the prework out shake they noticed that during their work out the pain is gone. They also take a shake after work out also. Two of them work out in the morning and both have said that by the afternoon the pain returns which is probably about when it depletes out of their system. This is all speculation of course as I only have a few to work with. They all get injured so get pain meds hence addiction for those into that sport I would imagine so one referred others to me. Too bad I didn't have hundreds to work with as I find this very interesting. I will talk to Robert about this also and see his take on it as he has way more experience than I do working with subs. Interesting though.

    Henry
    That is interesting...good thing I brought what little steak I had left over for lunch today! Might just have defrost the rest of it and keep on truckin!

    It's also not as much the taste as it is just the pure fact of putting that ???? in my body, it just doesn't sit well with my head any longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    I hear you about that taste of the subs. At first I thought "okay king of a little bit of a strange licorice type taste" then as I neared the end of the program I just wanted to spit it out which I didn't of course. Kind of like drinking a lot of water. At first it tastes (water has taste?) good when it is ice cold on a hot day. Then after several mouthfuls you just want to cool off and hydrate. After the first half of the glass you start sipping. By the time you finish it you really don't want a second one.
    Deer steaks are tasty and actually much better for you than store bought meats. Lean and full of protein. By the way speaking of protein I am doing a study on symptoms reduction and currently am working with weightlifters and body builders. For some reason they don't feel the aches and pains as much on a much longer term just prior to and after working out. That had me stumped until I compared what they consumed. Each of them take a blend of protein powder for muscle growth and stamina complete with amino acids and other essentials for muscle recovery. These are not anabolic steroids but rather the high protein shakes you see in all the stores. They take it before a work out and after. The next day they feel the aches and pains but it isn't the aches and pains from the work out but rather from the detox. About an hour after taking the prework out shake they noticed that during their work out the pain is gone. They also take a shake after work out also. Two of them work out in the morning and both have said that by the afternoon the pain returns which is probably about when it depletes out of their system. This is all speculation of course as I only have a few to work with. They all get injured so get pain meds hence addiction for those into that sport I would imagine so one referred others to me. Too bad I didn't have hundreds to work with as I find this very interesting. I will talk to Robert about this also and see his take on it as he has way more experience than I do working with subs. Interesting though.

    Henry
    Just heard this quote and had to share it with someone -

    "How sweet all at once it was for me to be rid of those fruitless joys which I had once feared to lose." - Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Just heard this quote and had to share it with someone -

    "How sweet all at once it was for me to be rid of those fruitless joys which I had once feared to lose." - Augustine
    Morning Henry! How are you my friend?? Doing pretty good here, slept like a baby last night and sure as heck didn't want to get up this morning after not sleeping at all the night before! Man I hope I sleep tonight!

    Feeling pretty good today so far and so glad not to have to put anything under my tongue today or tomorrow! Just hope this 2 day skip doesn't get me! I'm going to do everything I can to tough it out if it does get rough though. Man this is exciting! Anyhow, I will keep you updated on progress and how I'm feeling and if I run into any bumps in the road! Ready for the weekend (my birthday) and getting this behind me. Glad to have made a good friend in the process, like you said maybe one day we'll end up fishing and drinking a cold one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    Morning Henry! How are you my friend?? Doing pretty good here, slept like a baby last night and sure as heck didn't want to get up this morning after not sleeping at all the night before! Man I hope I sleep tonight!

    Feeling pretty good today so far and so glad not to have to put anything under my tongue today or tomorrow! Just hope this 2 day skip doesn't get me! I'm going to do everything I can to tough it out if it does get rough though. Man this is exciting! Anyhow, I will keep you updated on progress and how I'm feeling and if I run into any bumps in the road! Ready for the weekend (my birthday) and getting this behind me. Glad to have made a good friend in the process, like you said maybe one day we'll end up fishing and drinking a cold one!
    Good morning buddy!
    First I just wanted to say you are doing one REAL kick butt job on this! Proud of you man!
    You may or may not feel anything but if you do it will most likely be later today or tomorrow. If you start to feel any aches or pains in the muscles, joints or bone like pain don't freak out as it is just the bad guys trying and throwing things at you to try and get you back on the substance. Hey they would throw the kitchen sink at you if they could. They will start using psychological warfare so be ready just in case they do. Depression, anxiety, crying for no reason and other things and just think of it this way that each time you feel a symptom they are trying to fight back because you are winning! The worse the symptom the more you are beating them down! Kind of like two boxers where one hits the other one hard then that one hits harder back. They slug it out with each hitting harder and harder but you won't yield. You WILL start to feel the hits fading in power and they will start to be fewer and farther between. They are going down brother and you are knocking them out of the ring! No pain no gain! No retreat no surrender! Victory is in sight and an arms length away now! They may put up a couple more desperate bouts but fear not cause it is just their last twitches. YOU ARE WINNING!!! Awesome and super exciting eh?
    Happy early Birthday! Hope that day is full of nice suprises and just think the best present you can ever give youself is getting rid of this addiction! Great timing!
    Hang in there you are doing one great job on this! Man I don't know who is more excited about this me or you?

    Henry

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    Good morning buddy!
    First I just wanted to say you are doing one REAL kick butt job on this! Proud of you man!
    You may or may not feel anything but if you do it will most likely be later today or tomorrow. If you start to feel any aches or pains in the muscles, joints or bone like pain don't freak out as it is just the bad guys trying and throwing things at you to try and get you back on the substance. Hey they would throw the kitchen sink at you if they could. They will start using psychological warfare so be ready just in case they do. Depression, anxiety, crying for no reason and other things and just think of it this way that each time you feel a symptom they are trying to fight back because you are winning! The worse the symptom the more you are beating them down! Kind of like two boxers where one hits the other one hard then that one hits harder back. They slug it out with each hitting harder and harder but you won't yield. You WILL start to feel the hits fading in power and they will start to be fewer and farther between. They are going down brother and you are knocking them out of the ring! No pain no gain! No retreat no surrender! Victory is in sight and an arms length away now! They may put up a couple more desperate bouts but fear not cause it is just their last twitches. YOU ARE WINNING!!! Awesome and super exciting eh?
    Happy early Birthday! Hope that day is full of nice suprises and just think the best present you can ever give youself is getting rid of this addiction! Great timing!
    Hang in there you are doing one great job on this! Man I don't know who is more excited about this me or you?

    Henry
    WE GOT THIS MAN! I'm not expecting anything too bad other than maybe not great sleep, slight RLS and anxiety, but screw that ????! Let's do it! The only symptom for the 1 day skip was lack of sleep, so I can handle that if need be.

    Looking forward to the weekend big time! Baseball game Friday night and first pre-season NFL game Saturday night!

    As a wise man once told me "Let's kick this mule!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by shldveknwn View Post
    WE GOT THIS MAN! I'm not expecting anything too bad other than maybe not great sleep, slight RLS and anxiety, but screw that ????! Let's do it! The only symptom for the 1 day skip was lack of sleep, so I can handle that if need be.

    Looking forward to the weekend big time! Baseball game Friday night and first pre-season NFL game Saturday night!

    As a wise man once told me "Let's kick this mule!"
    That's the spirit!
    Don't know about kicking a mule though. LOL! Last time I was watching this vid on one of the web sites that shows MPEGS, can't list names here, this guy branded a horse and the horse stepped out of the cage with it's rear leg and kicked the guy and he went flying off screen quick!!! OUCH!!! LOL! Was funny though but hey I'm game. I'll do almost anything once. Lets go find a mule. Better yet the mule is addiction so I am all for kicking that! LOL!
    Weekends are cool for sure even if nothing is going on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryNCBA View Post
    That's the spirit!
    Don't know about kicking a mule though. LOL! Last time I was watching this vid on one of the web sites that shows MPEGS, can't list names here, this guy branded a horse and the horse stepped out of the cage with it's rear leg and kicked the guy and he went flying off screen quick!!! OUCH!!! LOL! Was funny though but hey I'm game. I'll do almost anything once. Lets go find a mule. Better yet the mule is addiction so I am all for kicking that! LOL!
    Weekends are cool for sure even if nothing is going on!
    Welp, the day is about over...feeling good and ready to head to the house! Just hope I can get some sleep tonight! I'm sure I'll be fine though, not feeling any symptoms really today at all, so that's a plus! Have a good evening my friend and talk to you tomorrow!

    Dang I'm close! I've got butterflies I'm so excited! I think I've got you beat Homer on the excitement.

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