[mproshuto]

Hi guys,

Anyone knowing stuff about Sub...I need your help.

I started Suboxone on Xmas day after 24 hours without a Lortab; was taking 80-100 mgs a day for a year. The dr. wrote my a prescription and told my how to do the induction. I wound up taking 8 mgs in the a.m. and 4 mgs in the p.m. I felt good...a little high, tired, but other than that pretty good. I also took my Klonopin in the a.m. .5 mgs.

I have been keeping up with 12 mgs a day of the Sub. since then and have been going through some serious depression, anxiety, panic attacks, extreme fatigue, and I feel like my breathing is slowed about an hour after I take it. So I associated it with the Klonopin and am taking a very, very small piece 1 or 2x a day. It probably wouldn't weigh out to be even .25 mg.

Well, had my appt. yesterday. My biggest problem is I wind up putting myself into withdrawals from the Klonopin (been on for 2 years..around .5-1 mg a day) and won't take the .5 2x a day he has told me to b/c the whole respiratory depression scares me so bad that I am too afraid to fall asleep.

He thinks the symptoms that I have associated with the Suboxone is actually Klonopin withdrawal. And I think he's right, but call me crazy...I have just read too many scary stories and don't want to fall asleep and stop breathing.

He put me on a schedule when I saw him on Monday:

4mg @ 8am of Sub
.5 mg @ 8am of Klonopin

4mg @ 2pm of Sub

4mg @ 8 pm of Sub
.5 mg @ 8pm of Klonopin

But today I took .25 of Klonopin and 4mg of Sub in the a.m. And another .25 of klonopin at noon.

My anxiety is still high and I really just want to get off the Sub and go through the w/ds. My anxiety is so high and I have been having panic attacks that scare the **** outta me. I am just terrified of taking the Sub and the Klonopin together no matter how low the dose and even though the doctor has promised me I'll be ok.

I need help. What should I do? Should I stop the Sub and how? What about the Klonopin and Sub together?

Its sad, but I almost feel like I trust people I have never met rather than trust my dr. But dr. make money from Sub and everyone here just wants to help everyone else.

I wish I could just take both drugs as ordered and follow the dr. directions, but I am so damn scared.

Thanks everyone....Hugs to you all for your help!!

[mproshuto]

Oh Wow...Robert, I just read something you wrote in a past post about the side effects of the Naxol..(sp?) in the Suboxone being depression/anxiety. Do you think that....in combination with the withdrawals from suddenly cutting my Klonopin down could cause all of this???

[jballard518]

mproshuto - I feel for you, friend. I also have anxiety/panic which is controlled by Xanax. I wish I could give you more advice, unfortunately I don't know anything about the sub. But, I agree with some of your symptoms being withdraw from the Klonopin. It is in the benzo family (as is Xanax) and I found out myself that you can't make a sudden drop in your dosage of a benzo without having rebound anxiety/panic. Also, your intense fear is probably feeding the panic and vice-versa. Suggestion I'm going to make sounds crazy, but could you have a family member or friend be available to watch/check on you so you can get some sleep? Lack of sleep probably makes it worse. Good luck - I have said prayer for you.

[mproshuto]

Thanks JBallard.....I hate, hate panic and anxiety. This is typical for me....get a new medicine....read every horror story about it....have such anxiety and start panicing as soon as I take the med....wind up not being able to take it and back to square one. I think I just need some reasurrance from Robert and Musicman b/c they are the Sub heros around here. Its weird...if they tell me that I am ok, I'll believe it...but not my own doctor. Weird, huh??

[jballard518]

I sympathize. I'm the same way about new meds...have to research them and then afraid of them. So thankful my panic is under control now - it was the worst thing ever. Since I'm new here, I'll keep in mind that Robert and Musicman are the "go-to" guys. Nice to have them to rely on, I'm sure. Good luck friend! I definitely will continue the prayer for you.

[mproshuto]

Ok so the other .25 I took at noon has calmed me down; I don't feel as tired, my anxiety isn't as bad, etc. So today I took 4mg of Sub in the am and a .25mg of Klonopin and then another .25 mg of Klonopin at noon (around that time). Yesterday I had 10 mg of the Sub...so I think I am going to shoot for 4 more mg tonight then start on Roberts tapering program. I have been on 12mg (except for the 10mg) since Xmas morning and I want to be on 8 and then get off of this stuff.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mproshuto

Ok so the other .25 I took at noon has calmed me down; I don't feel as tired, my anxiety isn't as bad, etc. So today I took 4mg of Sub in the am and a .25mg of Klonopin and then another .25 mg of Klonopin at noon (around that time). Yesterday I had 10 mg of the Sub...so I think I am going to shoot for 4 more mg tonight then start on Roberts tapering program. I have been on 12mg (except for the 10mg) since Xmas morning and I want to be on 8 and then get off of this stuff.

I appreciate your vote of confidence. I think you are doing great. Stopping opiates and benzos both at the same time is tough. You're probably taking a little more suboxone than you need in my opinion. 12mg is a little bit high of a dose. But you are mentally ready to begin tapering down so it won't be that big of a deal.

As far as the klonopin goes you know my feelings about mixing benzos and suboxone. The fact that you are about to begin to taper down from the subs makes me feel better. My suggestion is to begin tomorrow taking 4mg in the morning as prescribed, skip the mid day dose entirely, and then take an additional 4mg at about 5 or 6 in the afternoon. I think 8:00 is too late with you having anxiety issues. The naloxone in the suboxone can cause some anxiety anyway and add to your sleep problems. So we always suggest to take it earlier in the evening or late afternoon.

Dropping to 8mg will be a piece of cake. You won't feel any w/d from the suboxone as you haven't been on it for long enough. Don't stop the suboxone yet as you need to get past the opiate detox. I will help you do this a little more quickly than we normally do it over a six week period or so. I realize you are dealing with the benzo issue so we will work together to get this done in a more timely manner.

Try to relax and not add to your anxiety. You should be okay with taking NO MORE than 1mg per day as the dr suggested. You don't have to take it if you don't feel like you need it though. You have to judge some of this for yourself. Stay in touch with me over the forum and I will watch for your posts. Musicman will likely post as well. I'm sure he will tell you about the same thing I have said. Just take care of yourself and keep us posted. I will watch daily for your posts and we will get you through this together. You are in my prayers. God bless.

[mproshuto]

You are a blessing, Robert! I don't go over .50 of the klonopin. But my brain is a big sponge that just sucks up all kinds of information...then sends that info to my body and makes me all panicky. LOL! I have a feeling that it has a lot to do with the narcan stuff...because as soon as that pill is absorbed; I start panicking. Weird! Anyways, I am going to stay with the .25 of Klonopin 2x a day b/c if I try to stop taking it...I get w/ds from that and that confuses me on the whole: am I taking enough Sub, etc.

So....I have only taken 4mgs of the Sub today. And I will only take 4 more tonight. I haven't had any w/ds from going from the 12 to 10 in a day, except for cravings. Nothing physical though.

Since my anxiety sky rockets after taking one...should I split my 4 mg dose into 2 one hour and 2 the next??

I will be glued to my comp. But I really, really want to go your route. I don't think my dr. is a quack or anything; but he told me a opiate detox wasn't the way to go. He says our bodies will naturally reject the Sub when it gets to be too much by giving us naseua. Yeah...well, I would rather take the Robert proven road!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you.......I was so happy to see a response from you!

When should I take my last 4 mg dose today? I took my only 4mg this morning at 8am.

Talk to ya soon.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mproshuto

You are a blessing, Robert! I don't go over .50 of the klonopin. But my brain is a big sponge that just sucks up all kinds of information...then sends that info to my body and makes me all panicky. LOL! I have a feeling that it has a lot to do with the narcan stuff...because as soon as that pill is absorbed; I start panicking. Weird! Anyways, I am going to stay with the .25 of Klonopin 2x a day b/c if I try to stop taking it...I get w/ds from that and that confuses me on the whole: am I taking enough Sub, etc.

So....I have only taken 4mgs of the Sub today. And I will only take 4 more tonight. I haven't had any w/ds from going from the 12 to 10 in a day, except for cravings. Nothing physical though.

Since my anxiety sky rockets after taking one...should I split my 4 mg dose into 2 one hour and 2 the next??

I will be glued to my comp. But I really, really want to go your route. I don't think my dr. is a quack or anything; but he told me a opiate detox wasn't the way to go. He says our bodies will naturally reject the Sub when it gets to be too much by giving us naseua. Yeah...well, I would rather take the Robert proven road!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you.......I was so happy to see a response from you!

When should I take my last 4 mg dose today? I took my only 4mg this morning at 8am.

Talk to ya soon.

There is absolutely NO reason to take the sub in any smaller amounts than the two 4mg doses. Don't split the 4mg doses into two 2mg doses. You will be taking sub throughout the day if you do that. One of the things you want to do at this time is stop the addict type of behavior of taking SOMETHING every hour or two. That is addict behavior and you don't need to be doing that, besides the medication is not helping you any more by taking more 2mg doses. That is a figment of your imagination from being an addict. Two doses at 4mg each is just fine.

I have no idea what this dr is talking about with our bodies naturally rejecting excess suboxone ... not to be concerned with taking too much. Sounds like the attitude of a bunch of drs that end up causing their patients to find this web site or some place similar. I'm glad you decided against such a suggestion. That doesn't even make sense if you think about it logically which you obviously have already.

Take your second 4mg dose today at 5:00. You want to take it the same time each day as well so you establish consistency. It's the best way, the only way really to track when you should taper again and proceed forward. So you want to stay on a strict regimen as far as dosing times. Just relax and don't worry yourself with this. It will all work out okay I promise.

Just follow the suggestions and you will be done with this in no time at all. Let me know if you have any problems ... I don't expect that you will have any at all. God bless.

[Katwantshelp]

I hope everything is going well for you. I quit using on November 25th and also started Suboxone. Robert has also been a tremendous help to me. Trust him as he will not lead you astray. Anyhow, from what I remember, right after I quit the pills and started the Sub, I also had a couple of pretty anxious days and I do not normally have anxiety issues. I did 5 or so years ago but I have worked through them with no problems. I have never taken any meds for anxiety, even when it was at its worst back then. I guess anxiety should kind of be expected because we are making a huge lifestyle change when we decide to quit the opiates whether it be cold turkey, tapering or with the help of Suboxone. I am so glad that way of life is behind me. Now I want to get rid of the Sub because ever since I started it I have had a horrible ringing in my ears. I am not 100 percent sure it is from the Sub but it seems to be right around when it started.
Good luck to you. Like I said I also had a couple of pretty anxious days but here I am just over a month later and other than this *&^( ringing in my ears, I feel great. I am at 4mg of Sub a day, ready to taper again. You can do this!!

Hugs,
Kat

[mproshuto]

Ok, well I took my 4mg dose at 5:00 just as you said and was ok until about 2 hours later (7:00) and started to feel really nauseous, dizzy, and panicky. This happened last night too. Do you think that 8 mg is still too much for me? I think that I screwed my whole induction up b/c I followed my dr. suggestions on it. Instead of waiting until the physical symptoms were bad and doing 2mg each hour until dose is reached (like I've read on here). He said take 4mgs 24hours after my last Lortab and dose 4 more each hour until I felt relief. So thats how I ended up at 12mgs....but I don't think that was right.

I am following everything you tell me Robert. I am def. committed to staying off of opiates and def. want to get off of this Sub ASAP. I should have CTed. The last 4 days of taking the lortab I only took 30mgs per day. What the hell was I thinking??!!!

And I totally agree about what you said about taking 2mgs instead of the full dose. I didn't realize that was the "addict" taking pills every hour or two. But you are so right!!! How do you know all of this?? It amazes me that you know all of this and are right on target.

Wanna hear the really funny part? My sub dr. is the brother of a very good friend of mine who is a veternarian. I thought because of that, that I could trust him....but I just can't. Yet, I totally trust you, who I don't know from Adam. Is that weird or what???

Ok...so waiting to hear if you think since I am getting sick after my second dose each night, if I need to bring it down another notch before I stick to it for a few days. I think I would be ok on 4mgs. I was fine with it all day until I took the second one. ???

Gracias Robert and all who have helped thus far. Wish I knew you guys so I could give you a big, big hug!!!!

[mproshuto]

Oh and I have (8) 8 mg tablets left and (5) more at the pharmacy. If I need to get more to do my taper, I will tell my dr. Don't want to if you think this is enough. Thanks!

[mproshuto]

Robert, I have done 2 days of 8mgs. What do I do next??

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mproshuto

Robert, I have done 2 days of 8mgs. What do I do next??

I appreciate your kind words in your posts. As long as you follow the suggestions given you will do well I am confident.

When people come here from drs that have them on too high doses it often makes this a little tougher at first getting you straightened out and you on the right dose. Hang in there.

I would still stay on 8mg today. It shouldn't be making you sick. If it's still doing the same thing this evening let me know and we'll adjust your dose. I just don't want to jump too soon. I want to give this a chance to straighten out without changing your dosage yet if we can. Let me know tonight please. God bless.

[mproshuto]

sounds good...last night it didn't make me sick so I should be ok for taking my other 4mg dose tonight as well......I am so thankful that you are on here and willing to help. Hope you had a great New Years Eve and relaxing today!!

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mproshuto

sounds good...last night it didn't make me sick so I should be ok for taking my other 4mg dose tonight as well......I am so thankful that you are on here and willing to help. Hope you had a great New Years Eve and relaxing today!!

What's going on, what is your status??? I haven't seen anything, no posts, nothing from you since this post and now it's four days later. Just concerned that you're doing okay.

I realize you did a lot of this detox by yourself and that is fine as long as you are doing well. I just want to be sure you're making it okay. Let us know how you're doing. God bless.

[mproshuto]

HI Robert, thanks for your concern. I have gotten down to 4mgs and am doing better as far the anxiety and panic goes. Still depressed, but I had the depression before the Sub. I have been on 4mgs for 2 days now. I went from 8-6-4. And I have printed out your sticky post about weaning after 4. Gonna try 4mg for about 4 more days then taper to 0. The only real concern I have had is cravings. They have been more prominent and intense since I have being weaning. I am almost scared to taper off completely....should I stay on 4 for a while? And does cravings justify taking a "sliver" and will it work?

Also...I have been prescribed lamictal by my psychiatrist (she knows all thats going on). Also my Sub dr. thinks Lamictal will be good for me. I am going to post and ask if anyone who had an addiction problem is on Lamictal..and if it seemed to help even slightly with getting your moods back to normal and such.

Thanks again and will wait to hear what you say about taking a "sliver" for cravings before I do.

Hope all is well and 2009 is going great for you!!!

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mproshuto

HI Robert, thanks for your concern. I have gotten down to 4mgs and am doing better as far the anxiety and panic goes. Still depressed, but I had the depression before the Sub. I have been on 4mgs for 2 days now. I went from 8-6-4. And I have printed out your sticky post about weaning after 4. Gonna try 4mg for about 4 more days then taper to 0. The only real concern I have had is cravings. They have been more prominent and intense since I have being weaning. I am almost scared to taper off completely....should I stay on 4 for a while? And does cravings justify taking a "sliver" and will it work?

Also...I have been prescribed lamictal by my psychiatrist (she knows all thats going on). Also my Sub dr. thinks Lamictal will be good for me. I am going to post and ask if anyone who had an addiction problem is on Lamictal..and if it seemed to help even slightly with getting your moods back to normal and such.

Thanks again and will wait to hear what you say about taking a "sliver" for cravings before I do.

Hope all is well and 2009 is going great for you!!!

Take your time with the taper. If you do it like we've suggested you shouldn't have any symptoms to speak of. Going from 6mg to 4mg is a little aggressive but it's okay if you feel alright. I just DON'T recommend dropping by 33% like that. It will almost surely catch up with you if you continue that type of reduction off the suboxone. That large reduction could be why you are feeling the cravings.

By cravings I am assuming you mean the mental part of this. Some people are helped some with these type of cravings with the suboxone, but I can't say it's a guarantee for everyone. There is NO problem with staying at 4mg for a bit. I would rather you do that then reducing and have your cravings worsen. When you drop below the 4mg I want you to feel good. It's very important as the symptoms will get worse if you aren't good and stable prior to reducing again. If you have to take a .5mg sliver that wouldn't be the end of the world, but don't take any more than that. I almost think it might be counter-productive at this point if you did that.

Lamictal is normally RXd as an anticonvulsant. It can be used for other things too. They may be suggesting it as it can help some with your overall mood and well being. I'm not overly knowledgeable about lamictal so I wouldn't want to question what the dr told you about this. Stay in touch. God bless.