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    DownTheBeach is offline New Member
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    Hi, I was looking for Robert. I don't really want to post my whole situation/condition, because it is very " out of the box" treatment. I don't think it would be good to post for everyone. I would really appreciate your help. I've read the site and you seem to know a lot. I agree with a person that said you should write a book btw. I know a lot of people are requesting your help. I would really appreciate a few minutes for your expertise. Thank You!

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownTheBeach View Post
    Hi, I was looking for Robert. I don't really want to post my whole situation/condition, because it is very " out of the box" treatment. I don't think it would be good to post for everyone. I would really appreciate your help. I've read the site and you seem to know a lot. I agree with a person that said you should write a book btw. I know a lot of people are requesting your help. I would really appreciate a few minutes for your expertise. Thank You!




    I am available on the forum, all you have to do is post to me right here. I'll anwer you. There is no private messaging.

    You are totally anonymous here so ask me what you want to ask. Don't worry I've been asked some pretty wild questions here. Just keep it legal and non-addictive behavior. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    DownTheBeach is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    I am available on the forum, all you have to do is post to me right here. I'll anwer you. There is no private messaging.

    You are totally anonymous here so ask me what you want to ask. Don't worry I've been asked some pretty wild questions here. Just keep it legal and non-addictive behavior. God bless.

    ok, I will write it here:

    I have refractary (treatment resistant) depression, suicide attempts as well, anxiety, insomnia and ocd. I have been on every anti-depressant medicine with no results, some of them made it worse. Always getting the side effects and not the benefits. I have tried nortriptaline with no results. I have also tried natural herbs and accupuncture with the herbs making me angry and very strong. So I was taken off of that since it wasn't working. I have been put on adderall and other medicines in the stimulant family with no results. I refuse to do ECT.

    I am under the care of two doctors and an accupuncturist. And am now being treated with a opiate based medications. So it was either this type of controversial treatment or death.

    The way it works is I take a titration of between .5 a teaspoon up to 2 teaspoons 4 days a week of a codine based medicine and a titration of between 5 through 10 mg a day of a Vicodin based medicines for the other 3 days. Tapering these up and down, so as not to have to take more. I take these medicines in the morning only.

    So that is a brief overview of what is obviously a very complicated situation, so here is the question I wanted to ask you and I have asked my physcians as well, but from reading your posts in this forum, I wanted to get your opinion due to your vast knowledge in the opiate area.

    This treatment has been working very well for me over the past 2 years. The medications allow me to get out of bed and exercise and do everyday things, that ordinarly I would not be able to do or even care about doing. Here is where the complicated part comes in, suddenly, I would say for the past 5 days, everything I take has done a 180.

    So for the past 2 years, the medicine has put me at what I consider "normal", being able to get up, not sleep all day, participate in life. In the past 5 days, the medicine is knocking me out. I am so tired, even my doctor is perplexed why this sudden change of effect is occuring.

    So from reading the boards I am trying to understand, what has happened. From what I have read it is not a tolerance issue, because I am actually at my lowest dose and it is still working quite strongly, but just the opposite effect of how it worked for the last 2 years.

    I hope I described everything as best as I possibily could. I would really appreciate your help, because I cannot go back to how I used to live. Since my doctors are perplexed I am searching out all opinions on what is happening. I look forward to your reply.

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    usmcmom is offline New Member
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    Hello Robert,
    I just registered here and am so grateful to have found this site. I came upon it while searching for information on Subutex. I am currently on Suboxone and I feel that switching would be beneficial to me. I do have a couple of questions/concerns and have discovered that you are a wealth of information so I will check back to make sure that you're fine with my asking you directly. I will then elaborate further as to my situation and go from there. Thanks so much.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownTheBeach View Post
    ok, I will write it here:

    I have refractary (treatment resistant) depression, suicide attempts as well, anxiety, insomnia and ocd. I have been on every anti-depressant medicine with no results, some of them made it worse. Always getting the side effects and not the benefits. I have tried nortriptaline with no results. I have also tried natural herbs and accupuncture with the herbs making me angry and very strong. So I was taken off of that since it wasn't working. I have been put on adderall and other medicines in the stimulant family with no results. I refuse to do ECT.

    I am under the care of two doctors and an accupuncturist. And am now being treated with a opiate based medications. So it was either this type of controversial treatment or death.

    The way it works is I take a titration of between .5 a teaspoon up to 2 teaspoons 4 days a week of a codine based medicine and a titration of between 5 through 10 mg a day of a Vicodin based medicines for the other 3 days. Tapering these up and down, so as not to have to take more. I take these medicines in the morning only.

    So that is a brief overview of what is obviously a very complicated situation, so here is the question I wanted to ask you and I have asked my physcians as well, but from reading your posts in this forum, I wanted to get your opinion due to your vast knowledge in the opiate area.

    This treatment has been working very well for me over the past 2 years. The medications allow me to get out of bed and exercise and do everyday things, that ordinarly I would not be able to do or even care about doing. Here is where the complicated part comes in, suddenly, I would say for the past 5 days, everything I take has done a 180.

    So for the past 2 years, the medicine has put me at what I consider "normal", being able to get up, not sleep all day, participate in life. In the past 5 days, the medicine is knocking me out. I am so tired, even my doctor is perplexed why this sudden change of effect is occuring.

    So from reading the boards I am trying to understand, what has happened. From what I have read it is not a tolerance issue, because I am actually at my lowest dose and it is still working quite strongly, but just the opposite effect of how it worked for the last 2 years.

    I hope I described everything as best as I possibily could. I would really appreciate your help, because I cannot go back to how I used to live. Since my doctors are perplexed I am searching out all opinions on what is happening. I look forward to your reply.



    DownTheBeach ...... with suicide attempts and the psych problems you are discussing I am caught off guard a little with this one. Your opiate doses haven't been that high if they've been effective unless it's become a tolerance issue after all this time. I hate to recommend increasing doses but again you're really not taking much opiates as I understand your post. You seem to stayed in good control of the amounts used.

    Going two years and only taking 5 or 10mg a day of vicodin or a little codiene is really not addictive type behavior as well as you've seemingly controlled it. But about any opiate will lose effectiveness over time.

    I hate to speak for your dr considering your problems in the past. When suicide attempts enter the picture I think it prudent to defer judgement to the dr. I am not a psychiatrist for sure. If he agreed to increasing the vics to 15mg a day or so and it kept you from being suicidal I wouldn't argue that point, though I hate to suggest increasing your opiate usage. It will eventually lose effectiveness as well and another increase would be necessary. I'm sorry that I don't have a better reply but this is kind of out of my league where psych problems enter the picture. I don't like any of the psych drugs the drs had me on years ago either so I understand how you feel.

    Let me know what the dr says. I'm really curious to know what you;re told. Hope that helps somehow. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmom View Post
    Hello Robert,
    I just registered here and am so grateful to have found this site. I came upon it while searching for information on Subutex. I am currently on Suboxone and I feel that switching would be beneficial to me. I do have a couple of questions/concerns and have discovered that you are a wealth of information so I will check back to make sure that you're fine with my asking you directly. I will then elaborate further as to my situation and go from there. Thanks so much.




    usmcmom ...... feel free to ask anything you like. Switching from suboxone to subutex helps lots of people. About 15% of all people I work with react adversely to the naloxone in suboxone though most sub drs will argue that point. I know better. But post your question right here. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    DownTheBeach is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert_325 View Post
    DownTheBeach ...... with suicide attempts and the psych problems you are discussing I am caught off guard a little with this one. Your opiate doses haven't been that high if they've been effective unless it's become a tolerance issue after all this time. I hate to recommend increasing doses but again you're really not taking much opiates as I understand your post. You seem to stayed in good control of the amounts used.

    Going two years and only taking 5 or 10mg a day of vicodin or a little codiene is really not addictive type behavior as well as you've seemingly controlled it. But about any opiate will lose effectiveness over time.

    I hate to speak for your dr considering your problems in the past. When suicide attempts enter the picture I think it prudent to defer judgement to the dr. I am not a psychiatrist for sure. If he agreed to increasing the vics to 15mg a day or so and it kept you from being suicidal I wouldn't argue that point, though I hate to suggest increasing your opiate usage. It will eventually lose effectiveness as well and another increase would be necessary. I'm sorry that I don't have a better reply but this is kind of out of my league where psych problems enter the picture. I don't like any of the psych drugs the drs had me on years ago either so I understand how you feel.

    Let me know what the dr says. I'm really curious to know what you;re told. Hope that helps somehow. God bless.
    Hi Robert,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I am seeing my doctor again tomorrow as I do weekly. We went over this last week and since her expertise with me is more talk therapy, she is perplexed as to why this is suddenly happening, because the opiates haven't stopped working at the level I am on, they just have the opposite effect.

    For example, from what I have read it seems that when one gets to a tolerance level they feel "no effect" at all from the opiate. Therefore, they increase the dosage to feel an effect. But with me, I am feeling an effect, but it is the opposite effect that I have had for the past 2 years.

    I am afraid if I increase my dosage, rather than feeling the "normal" effect that has considerably helped me live a normal life for the past 2 years, I instead would feel even more tired.

    It is just so strange that the drug would just all of a sudden have a complete opposite effect.

    I won't get to see my second doctor until Mid-month and I am just so sick of being tired. Plus you seem to know more about this stuff than either of my doctors. My doctor tomorrow is for talking and she is not an expert in opiates although we do talk about them.

    Basically, I was wondering if you knew of similar cases like mine or of any research/literature on my situation. Or have you heard of an opiate suddenly doing a 180?

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownTheBeach View Post
    Hi Robert,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I am seeing my doctor again tomorrow as I do weekly. We went over this last week and since her expertise with me is more talk therapy, she is perplexed as to why this is suddenly happening, because the opiates haven't stopped working at the level I am on, they just have the opposite effect.

    For example, from what I have read it seems that when one gets to a tolerance level they feel "no effect" at all from the opiate. Therefore, they increase the dosage to feel an effect. But with me, I am feeling an effect, but it is the opposite effect that I have had for the past 2 years.

    I am afraid if I increase my dosage, rather than feeling the "normal" effect that has considerably helped me live a normal life for the past 2 years, I instead would feel even more tired.

    It is just so strange that the drug would just all of a sudden have a complete opposite effect.

    I won't get to see my second doctor until Mid-month and I am just so sick of being tired. Plus you seem to know more about this stuff than either of my doctors. My doctor tomorrow is for talking and she is not an expert in opiates although we do talk about them.

    Basically, I was wondering if you knew of similar cases like mine or of any research/literature on my situation. Or have you heard of an opiate suddenly doing a 180?




    I am not familiar with opiates having a "reversal" type of effect like you're describing. I better understand what is happening with your last post.

    The only thing that I can think of is if you're suddenly becoming tired and gettting the exact opposite effect that you're accustomed to, but still feeling the pain relief that would exclude tolerance issues perhaps you may need an additional medication, something like a low dose of extended release adderall or something similar. It may take a "psych" type of medication to work for you even though that isn't what you wanted to hear..

    I'm honestly not qualified to give you really good information on this subject unless I did a bunch of research. I have been ill and am seeing a surgeon myself in a couple days and am not physically up to doing the necessary research to answer something like this that I just really don't know about. I'm sorry I can't give you more information.

    Perhaps someone else on the forum with knowledge in this type of area will read this or you could re-post the question differently not directed to me. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on a variety of subjects on the forum that I totally trust. I wish the best for you and hope all works out for the best for you. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    ss1219 is offline New Member
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    Hello Robert,
    My wife and I have been following these posts for about a year now and today finally started our Suboxone induction. We both waited enough time to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Thank God. We started with 1mg an hour until stable I was around 5mg and she was around 4mg. My question is do we stop suboxone now for the first day and wait until day 2 to resume the process? Or I guess the question is when do we take the next dose?

    Thank you so much and God bless

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss1219 View Post
    Hello Robert,
    My wife and I have been following these posts for about a year now and today finally started our Suboxone induction. We both waited enough time to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Thank God. We started with 1mg an hour until stable I was around 5mg and she was around 4mg. My question is do we stop suboxone now for the first day and wait until day 2 to resume the process? Or I guess the question is when do we take the next dose?

    Thank you so much and God bless




    I don't know you guys' using history so that is a little tough to answer as we are all a little different. Give me a little background if you don't mind so I will be better able to help you effectively as we go forward.

    You did an awesome job with the induction. Sounds like you did it EXACTLY right. Congratulations! You're both on low doses and can be of so much support for each other. Just don't either of you let the enemy get to you and pull the other one down, a danger of doing this together as temptations are inevitable. Just be prepared and steadfast in your commitments! But for every danger there are more advantages as you have SOOO much to gain doing this as husband and wife together. Seen lots of spouses do this together successfully. It's truly an awesome thing to do with and for each other.

    My best advice to your question is if you feel stable tonight let it go and see how the night goes as is. Don't be embarrassed if you feel that you need a little extra to sleep and rest tonight. You kind of have to play the first day by ear. The induction actually lasts 4-5 days the way I suggest doing it. We may need to adjust your dose as tomorrow you'll both begin doing a split dose, or two equal doses each day. Sometimes we need to add a couple mg, sometimes that amount you got stable at works fine when you split it. The fact that you both did the process right is the most important thing. After about four days when we have you both totally stable on a split dose you'll want to reduce the dose by 25%. That will be your "lowest effective dose", or that is what I call it. You stay at that dose for like six or seven days to get past your actual opiate detox. Then you'll begin the taper.

    Keep me posted how this is going for you over the next few days and I'll be happy to help you. I'm having some personal health issues right now and see a cardiologist tomorrow morning and a surgeon on Thursday, so I will be on and off the forum this week if it takes me a few hours to reply. But people like Henry, Melinda, or several others that have done this successfully know the way the taper plan I use here works and I trust them totally if you get in a bind and it takes me too long to get back to you. I'll be available for you though I promise. I love to see spouses do this together and change your lives together for the better. Stay in touch. Hope that helps and your family benefits forever. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    ss1219 is offline New Member
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    Thank you for your help. Really thanks. My wife found your posts sometime last summer and I believe that her reading about your perseverence and success along with all the information you have unselfishly provided was able to get her her thru some difficult days and nights. Knowing it can be done and seeing your story really inspired her and in turn myself.
    Your instructions a clear regarding induction so it wasnt difficult to get it right. The only wildcard was the precipitated wd's, and I was unclear regarding the first day dosing after reaching the stable dosage, which by the way our respective doses are probably as low as we can go but and believe me I would love nothing more but to take 8-16mg and try to feel real good but I realize that my years of over indulgance would come with a price and for the big picture this is small price to pay. I am not hurting but don't feel that great either. We are somewhat uncomfortable BUT STABLE which is the point you clearly made. We both caved in and took 2mg each tonight, I think I was able to infer from the process that taking small amounts in between initial stabilization and day 2 dosage would not be an issue if done within the framework of the program.
    Our history goes back to 2006/2007 hydrocodone 100-400mg a day each depending on availability I was closer to the 400mg daily my wife closer to the 100mg dailly.. A few attempts at cold turkey and my wife, God bless her, switched to Tylenol w/Codeine twice when pregnant with our 2 children but was back at it with no help from her OBGyn tossing her a script for 20 norcs on the way out of the hospital. Dont get me wrong I KNOW this is NOBODY'S fault but our own. Man if I had all the money I spent on this I could have paid cash for a Ferarri NO JOKE. Anyway at the end over the last 2 months leading up to today we switched to methadone 20mg a day because it was much cheaper along with hydrocodone 200mg a week each. I know mixing the 2 is a waste but nothing about being an opiate addict makes sense anyway.
    We waited out the half life for each chemical before induction, asked God for some love and started today. The rest you already know.
    I am thinking if I do 2.5-3mg twice tomorrow and my wife 2mg twice tomorrow along with some light exercise and healthy eating to repair and rebuild the receptors we should be ready for day 3. What do you think?
    We fully understand all of the potential challenges to completing this process but we are both very determined and focused on getting our lives back. Both of us know the countless blessings we have most important our 2 year old daughter and 1 year old son they deserve all of what and who we are as parents.
    So with Gods blessing, focus and your help we are looking forward to getting back all of the things that life has to offer.
    Good luck with your doctor visits we wish you well. If you have time to review our situation and have any comments or suggestions please let us know. If there is such a thing as karma man you have plenty of credit believe me.

    Thank you again and God bless

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    ss1219 ...... Don't feel guilty about the extra 2mg. I really kind of expected it that you would need it. You're doing this great and I think your plan for tomorrow is right on for both of you.

    I have to see the Cardiologist at 9:30 and we are in Central Time Zone so you'll know. I don't know how long I'll be with the dr but I'll check on here when I come in afterwards. Just let me know after the morning dose how you're doing and I'll see it when I come in and reply acccordingly.

    Take care. You guys have a great attitude and I'm really comfortable with everything you've said. Talk with you tomorrow. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    ss1219 is offline New Member
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    So my wife and I both took our first dose this morning and we both are not hurting but not high somewhere in between. I think everything is what we expected. Feel kinda blah, sluggish and unmotivated. I also feel kinda strange, I think maybe a little anxiety or nervous tension. I am going to go to Walgreens this morning to get some Valerian root and try that rather than going the benzo route. Knowing myself I will end up chasing those. Hopefully that helps if not oh well.
    We will take our second dose later this afternoon/evening, we are on Central time also.

    Thanks for checking in, talk soon

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss1219 View Post
    So my wife and I both took our first dose this morning and we both are not hurting but not high somewhere in between. I think everything is what we expected. Feel kinda blah, sluggish and unmotivated. I also feel kinda strange, I think maybe a little anxiety or nervous tension. I am going to go to Walgreens this morning to get some Valerian root and try that rather than going the benzo route. Knowing myself I will end up chasing those. Hopefully that helps if not oh well.
    We will take our second dose later this afternoon/evening, we are on Central time also.

    Thanks for checking in, talk soon





    The L-Tyrosine and vitamin B-6 will help some with the "blah" feelings you describe. Valerian root is fine, I personally prefer the kava to it for anxiety but everyone has their own preferences and valerian is perfectly okay if you prefer it. I have a couple bottles around to this day and I've been clean almost 9 years, so it's good, won't hurt or compromise anything you're trying to accomplish. You guys are doing great, proud of you! Stay in touch and stay POSITIVE! You'll be success stories before you know it. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    ss1219 is offline New Member
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    We are in between doses on day 2 and both feeling like we are 90 years old. No offense to anyone 90 but come on. Don't get me wrong we are not hurting and the Suboxone keeps me from turning into a mindless idiot focused only on the chase and fix.
    We both took some time on the treadmill that we are fortunate to have in our house and man do I miss that. I went 10 minutes total 4min walking and 6min jogging. The endorphin release alone made me feel good, a true good feeling, for the first time in a while. It really helped to fill in the gap between doses.

    Robert, I would even go as far as to suggest the induction process be modified, ammended, appended whatever term you prefer to include a light exercise as a requirement not recomendation during induction. The endorphin release is a natural high that I bet would help keep many of the subjects that are discouraged or thinking about bailing. I am sure it is difficult for those people that are at about 6-8hrs into the first dose and waiting for the second especially being on the minimum amount required. Nothing difficult strating on day 2 or day 1 if up to it including 10-15 minutes of any activity that gets the heart rate up and stimulates blood and oxygen to the brain. Not to mention that exercise will expedite the rebuilding/repairing of the receptors and strengthen the neural pathways that help to promote active and productive behavior.
    I realize that I need to re-condition myself to be active and engaging rather than lazy and self indulging. Exercise will be a very important part of my recovery.
    I know you mention and promote exercise during induction, I believe making it a requirement might help to solidify even more an already solid foundation for recovery. Unless of course the subject is physically unable or medically restricted. Hope you don't mind the input

    Anyway we will be taking our second dose later today, I will let you know how it goes
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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    I agree with you about the physical exercise. It's the best med there is for opiate detox. I have said that for years, thanks for emphasizing it even more. You are totally correct!

    Don't have to run five miles, just push ourselves as our physical condition permits us to do. Nothing helps us with natural endorphine production like exercise does. Thanks for a great suggestion. God bless.
    Last edited by Robert_325; 04-05-2011 at 02:06 PM.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    ss1219 is offline New Member
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    I hope your dr visits went well.
    We are now on the second dose of Day 2 and so far so good.
    For day 3 do we replicate day 2 dosing?

    Thank you, God bless

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Repeat the same process for the next couple of days at least. God bless.
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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    Hi Robert_325 I have been searching for this taper program of yours but have been unable to. Is there any way you can help me find how to taper off Suboxone? Started at 24mg 1 year ago and now down to 8mg per day. Have been at 8 mg for 5 months. Doctor suggested go off for 48 hours then take 2mg then off another 48 hours then 2mg again. Start spreading 48 to 72 and so on. I have 43 IR 30mg oxy's have thought it is easier to go off these than a month of hell with subs. Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks

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    Robert_325 is offline Retired
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesileone View Post
    Hi Robert_325 I have been searching for this taper program of yours but have been unable to. Is there any way you can help me find how to taper off Suboxone? Started at 24mg 1 year ago and now down to 8mg per day. Have been at 8 mg for 5 months. Doctor suggested go off for 48 hours then take 2mg then off another 48 hours then 2mg again. Start spreading 48 to 72 and so on. I have 43 IR 30mg oxy's have thought it is easier to go off these than a month of hell with subs. Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks





    The taper plan the dr suggests is insane. DON'T DO IT!!! Follow the taper plan in my sub therapy link listed below. You reduce your sub dose 25% about every four days. Mixing 30mg oxy in there is crazier than the dr's suggestion.

    If you will follow the taper plan in the link below it will work just as it has for at least a thousand other people all over the world for years I promise. Read it closely and you'll end up clean if you follow it to the letter. It's been proven to be successful here for years.
    :
    You didn't get to the place you're in overnight and it's that desire for "instant gratification" that usually gets addicts a position like you find yourself. Take your time and follow the instructions to the letter. Stay in touch. God bless.


    http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html
    I am not a dr. My statements are based on years of experience and related education. Consult with the professional of your choice regarding matters of concern.

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