[BetterOffDead]

After six weeks of being off suboxone and still feeling like ********************, I'm starting on low dose naltrexone tonight. I think I've probably always had low endorphin levels, but the addition (or subtraction...) of the withdrawals has made things unbarable.

On top of that, and probably more significant in my mind, is that compulsive, addictive behaviors I haven't had to deal with while on narcotics have started to show themselves. I'm hoping the LDN will stabilize my own endorphins in the same way the narcotics did unnaturally. If not, I'm afraid I'm going to have to start the narcotics again to manage the other addictions.

Narcotics were not my drug of choice, but they sure stabilized me so I wasn't constantly reaching out for something. The last few weeks have scared me because of how compulsive I've become. I can't imagine how hard getting off narcotics would be if these compulsive tendancies pushed me back to the narcotics!

I'll keep updating on the effects of the LDN.

...I want my two dollars...

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by BetterOffDead

After six weeks of being off suboxone and still feeling like ********************, I'm starting on low dose naltrexone tonight. I think I've probably always had low endorphin levels, but the addition (or subtraction...) of the withdrawals has made things unbarable.

On top of that, and probably more significant in my mind, is that compulsive, addictive behaviors I haven't had to deal with while on narcotics have started to show themselves. I'm hoping the LDN will stabilize my own endorphins in the same way the narcotics did unnaturally. If not, I'm afraid I'm going to have to start the narcotics again to manage the other addictions.

Narcotics were not my drug of choice, but they sure stabilized me so I wasn't constantly reaching out for something. The last few weeks have scared me because of how compulsive I've become. I can't imagine how hard getting off narcotics would be if these compulsive tendancies pushed me back to the narcotics!

I'll keep updating on the effects of the LDN.

...I want my two dollars...

I hope you are successful with the low dose naltrexone. It would be very cool if it actually helps to stimulate endorphine production. Anything that works is great. I am not questioning, but curious where this idea comes from and how it would be determined that it was successful. Would it be that one might simply feel better and attribute it to this result??? Not trying to be smart at all, but how would we know that our endorphine production had increased? Did a doctor suggest this or is it something you decided to try on your own? I know that naltrexone helps with alcohol consumption for alcoholics. It has also been proven in studies that Naltrexone helps with compulsive behaviors linked to addiction so it could possibly help you some there based on your symptoms that you described. It doesn't affect recidivism (relapse) however. But other than that the only benefit I could find was its blocking properties of opoids. I read what info drugs.com has and what other information was available on Google. This endorphine production thing just caught my attention and I am curious.

[BetterOffDead]

I read about it originally on naabt.org. The primary driver is the endorphin production, but some of the comments on that site got me wonderingabout some things. First, I've never felt mentally normal. Second, I have, for as long as i can remember, compulsively used other stimuli, be it food or sex. Third, while I was taking narcotics, the compulsiveness went away. Fourth, when I went off, the compulsiveness came back hard-core.

Given what I know about endorphin production post-withdrawal, it made me wonder if that was tied to my compulsive behaviors. The success with alcoholics reinforced some of these thoughts.

In the end, it is an experiment. There is really no down side to the LDN, so if it doesnt work, no harm. However, I can't go back to that compulsiveness. It will tear my family and marriage apart. I'll go back on suboxone first.

When I get back to my computer, I'll track down more specific details. Hard to do that on the phone.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by BetterOffDead

I read about it originally on naabt.org. The primary driver is the endorphin production, but some of the comments on that site got me wonderingabout some things. First, I've never felt mentally normal. Second, I have, for as long as i can remember, compulsively used other stimuli, be it food or sex. Third, while I was taking narcotics, the compulsiveness went away. Fourth, when I went off, the compulsiveness came back hard-core.

Given what I know about endorphin production post-withdrawal, it made me wonder if that was tied to my compulsive behaviors. The success with alcoholics reinforced some of these thoughts.

In the end, it is an experiment. There is really no down side to the LDN, so if it doesnt work, no harm. However, I can't go back to that compulsiveness. It will tear my family and marriage apart. I'll go back on suboxone first.

When I get back to my computer, I'll track down more specific details. Hard to do that on the phone.

Thanks. The deal with alcohol abuse and related behaviors made me think about this as well. I even looked at my naabt.org subutex/suboxone materials too and didn't see anything. Obviously I didn't look in the right place. But I have all of their materials. If you find where the information is located let me know if you would be so kind. I would like to read more.

I do agree if there is no success there is still no harm done. I don't see anything in naltrexone that would be more harmful than acting out on addictive behaviors would be. If you would let me know when you locate the information. Thanks a lot.

[BetterOffDead]

As promised, here is more info...

The first I actually even heard of it was this thread: http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3864

That got me looking a little more. I found the LDN web site (http://www.ldninfo.org), and, while it contained a lot of interesting info about the drug, it didn't really help me in answering my questions. I think it was after reading this interview (http://www.gazorpa.com/interview.html) with one of the big proponents of LDN that I started to feel there might be something there.

I saw this thread (http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=968) and, thinking about the above info, wondered if perhaps replacing "Sub 101" with "LDN 101", which had been shown to increase endorphin production, might be reasonable.

All of this was on top of the nastiness of Suboxone chronic withdrawal symptoms...more than 30 days of runny nose, the runs, major lethargy, etc. I understood where the symptoms were coming from, but I was tired of waiting for my body to turn things back on.

As I mentioned earlier, the compulsiveness of my pre-narcotic addictions was really starting to scare me. I read this (http://www.gazorpa.com/History.html), and the part on how Naltrexone reduced relapse in alcoholics by 50% jumped out on me. I'd been doing a lot of thinking on the causes of relapse at that point, since I was past the acute withdrawal symptoms, but then felt more need to go back on something than I had during the worst of the acute phase.

Mentally, things started to click. I had self-medicated to create endorphins for years, to the point that it became compulsive. The time that I had freedom from the compulsiveness was when I was majorly enhancing my own endorphin production (with fake "endorphins). When I stopped doing that, the compulsiveness came back with a vengeance. Here is a drug that can significantly increase natural endorphin production, with very few side effects (mostly some sleep disturbance for the first couple of weeks).

Since I was already feeling like ******************** from the suboxone detox, I had absolutely nothing to lose. I'm still not sleeping well, anyway, so there's no disturbance. If it works, I'm gaining the benefits of the fake endorphins, but with my own natural ones. If it doesn't, it is non-addictive and can be stopped immediately with no adverse effects. And, because the relative doses are so small, it is really cheap, too (like $40 for 3 months).

I would love to see more studies of LDN on PAWS management, but I couldn't find much specific. The problem is Naltrexone is a post-patent drug, so even if it is a miracle drug, no pharma company is going to pay for the studies. That means slow-going. However, I'm more than willing to try to be another anecdote in the sea of Internet users who may have tried something.

[BetterOffDead]

Update: I took my first dose 24 hours ago. I slept about as I have been for the past several weeks, which is to say, interrupted. I woke up feeling about the same.

I did seem to have more energy, today. I went for a long, brisker walk at lunch than I have been doing. I also was able to get into the back yard and start digging trenches for sprinklers. That is the first time I've worked in the yard in the evening in a very long time.

I fully recognize that this may be a placebo effect at this point. I've read some stories of people seeing instant energy and others of people taking time to see results, so I'll see what tomorrow brings.

When I can get through the day without once feeling like I'd like to crawl out of my skin, then I'll know progress is being made. I hate that feeling...

[Robert_325]

Thanks. I appreciate the info. Was just about to crash tonite but I will check out the links in the morning. Will talk later.

[BetterOffDead]

As an interesting aside, Pain Therapeutics (http://www.paintrials.com/) has taken OC and mixed it with very small amounts of Naltrexone (http://www.paintrials.com/oxytrex.html). The result seems to be a narcotic pain killer that does not cause resistance nor the typical narcotic pain increase. The theory is that the Naltrexone blocks one of the opioid receptor that is excited by pain, and it is that one that causes the resistance to build.

[Robert_325]

Better Off Dead ... I have to admit that my attitude initially was similar to the sarcastic attitude of the guy on that first forum link you posted asking Dennis if the 2AM-4AM thing for endorphine production was Eastern time zone or Central time zone. These links were actually some very interesting reading. I was questioning you about this subject because I could see some logical possibilities when you mentioned use of LDN, but I was ignorant on the subject. Thanks for sending me these links. I am better informed now.