[tamara02]

hi guys ,yes diet pills give you energy, yes Lisa my sub doc rxed the diet pills they are called Adipex,there are also fastin and didrex,that work well ,but you have to get an rx ,unless you know someone that you can get a few from,also adderall makes you speedy all day long,have tried them before,dr 's use them for ADHD kids to help them focus,when adults take them it gives you lots of energy,but yes thay all are addicting just use them once in a while, chat w/ you later tamm

[LISA GIRL]

quote:Originally posted by tamara02

hi guys ,yes diet pills give you energy, yes Lisa my sub doc rxed the diet pills they are called Adipex,there are also fastin and didrex,that work well ,but you have to get an rx ,unless you know someone that you can get a few from,also adderall makes you speedy all day long,have tried them before,dr 's use them for ADHD kids to help them focus,when adults take them it gives you lots of energy,but yes thay all are addicting just use them once in a while, chat w/ you later tamm

That reminds me of that Desperate Housewives espisode where Lynette took all her kid's ADD medicine and started stealing it from her neighbor's medicine cabinets..lol...she was sewing a lot of costumes for her son's play... very stressful day today... work was crazy...I came home and took one of those ativan.. hate doing that but better that than the percs I guess...Hope everyone is well...kind of quiet today!

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by angler204

to all...

here's the junky coming out in me.
Is there anything that anyone is taking for increased energy levels? I feel tired and run down which makes the cravings tough...

any suggestions? Would working out help?

Actually, Adam...you hit this on the nosey!

This is the junkie coming out...no question in my mind.

And I'm going to qualify what I say by telling you that I come from a very abstinent point of view....as in no addictive, mood altering drugs inclusive of alcohol.

For me, getting past the concept that there was a pill for everything and anything that ailed me was huge.

Totally habituated to choosing the easier, softer way.

When we're newly clean, if we want to be clean & sober with any long-lasting recovery, we have to change our thinking.

The fatigue of early recovery is normal. It's just part of the process.

Give your body a chance to heal. Give it a chance for the natural serotonin and endorphins to kick in.

Don't jump to take something else. That's what we've done all our freaking lives...when in doubt, we took something.

And no, taking Ativan or other benzo's, is not better than taking Percodan, Oxy, Methadone, Vicodin, etc.

Ativan, stimulants and booze are about the substitution method. A method that is very dangerous to those looking to recover.

We choose substitutes because we're too impatient.

We look to substitutes because we seek to constantly change our state of consciousness. So, the switch up in recovery is to change our state of consciousness by changing our thinking and approach to life...to not take something everytime we're *uncomfortable* nor impatient.

It's about instant gratification. And for us, instant gratification takes too long, huh?

Want to have energy? Take a pill. Want to be calm? Take a pill.

I would humbly suggest that this is *stinkin' thinkin'.*

Additionally, for me, it was key to remember the fatigue. To remember feeling sh*tty. To remember the sleeplessness. To remember the aches and pains.

That which I don't remember, I am doomed to repeat!

And on the subject of sleeplnessness, taking stimulants is absolutely counter-productive. Anxiety, shakes and insomnia are definite side effects of these drugs.

I can't speak for you, but I know, for me, I had plenty of anxiety, shakes and insomnia going on during detox and PAWS without adding stimulants to the scenario.

I noted the advice regarding not taking stimulants the every day because they're addicting.

Again, I don't know if I'm sicker than others, but if I could control the taking of any addicting medication, I wouldn't be a frigging addict. An addict in control of addicting meds? An oxymoron.

Look...the odds for long-term (defined as more than 1 year) recovery from this disease are woefully low. Usually given as 5-7%.

Please...don't further stack the odds against you by ingesting something else. Warmly, Ar



Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[sparky]

I certainly had a wake up call today clueing in on "boooze" also being an alternate substance of abuse....I clearly didn't think booze was my issue....but learning that any mind alternating substance is something for the addict to glob onto...I went to an NA meeting today ( yeh)thinking to escape and hide away from the booze talk...but in NA they mean booze as well....wake up call....it was good to be at a meeting...the support helps...

[unclenasty93]

O.K., I guess I'll chime in with my 2 cents. This is in regards to all the recent discussion and debate about methadone and suboxone. No, of course you are not "entirely" clean and sober if you are on one of those. They are both opiates and potentially addictive. The definition of clean is to not be taking any mind or mood altering substances. The difference, though, between being on meth or sub versus the other opiates is that it is a HUGE change for the better and a very courageous act in dealing with one's addiction. When we begin taking meth or sub, we start living a much different life right away. No longer is our whole day and our whole life consumed by drugs. We now can actually live, we now actaully have some freedom. It is such a miserable, horrendous existence when our entire life is spent either using, trying to score, feeling terrible from coming down, finding elaborate ways to hide what we're doing, etc... Meth and sub can free people from all of that ****!! It also takes a ton of courage to give up your biggest security blanket. It takes a ton of courage to change in any way. I applaud and have the utmost respect for those of you on meth or sub. Whether you are on it a week or forever, good job! You all are brave, courageous people, who are doing something to fight this monster. Addictions are powerful beyond belief. They own us and control us. When someone steps up and says "I'm gonna get help, I'm gonna get the treatment I need to get better", they deserve enormous respect. How dare anybody belittle anothers efforts at treatment because they are on meth or sub and not off everything! Giving up our drugs of choice and all the patterns of living that go hand in hand with them is scary even terrifying. Thank God we have medications available to us that can help ease that fear, help ease that pain. Be proud of yourselves, those of you on meth or sub. You are brave, you are courageous and you sure as hell have my respect!!

peace. mike.

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by sparky

I certainly had a wake up call today clueing in on "boooze" also being an alternate substance of abuse....I clearly didn't think booze was my issue....but learning that any mind alternating substance is something for the addict to glob onto...I went to an NA meeting today ( yeh)thinking to escape and hide away from the booze talk...but in NA they mean booze as well....wake up call....it was good to be at a meeting...the support helps...

They do indeed mean booze as well.

" Thinking of alcohol as different from other drugs has caused a great many addicts to relapse. Before we came to NA, many of us viewed alcohol separately, but we cannot afford to be confused about this. Alcohol is a drug. Period. We are people with the disease of addiction who must abstain from all drugs in order to recover."

I believe one of two things can happen if we view alcohol differently.

Either we will turn to alcohol as our new DOC....or...when initially substituting alcohol for our DOC, it will lead right back to our original DOC.

When *we* drink in recovery...whether or not we've abused alcohol in the past, we make bad choices. We're still looking for the buzz...altered state. So, when we ingest a substance that produces that, our behavior is changed. We lose the vigilance required for maintenance of sobriety. Lost vigilance leads us right back from whence we come.

When I was about 14 months C&S, I encountered an emotionally gut wrenching issue. I was a restaurant with friends...fortunately sober friends.

I hate booze. Give me an opioid or benzo anytime. I personally haven't had a drink in 35 years.

However, I was emotionally out of whack. I wanted to be numb. Familiar feeling wanting to be numb.

I suddenly spied those pretty little drinks on the menu. Instantly...without any thought...that's exactly what I need to "feel better."

So, I announced I was going to order one. And I guess that by announcing it, I was crying out for help.

My friend looked at me and said, "Okay...sure. Order one. And I'll order one with you. Then we can order some more. Then we'll hit the bars. I'll (he) score some speed, you can score some pills, and you can then...in a few days...you can go to the Methadone clinic!"

Sooo...I played out the tape...quickly. Played it out to the bitter end. Nope. No booze. Close, but no cigar.

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[nymommy]

uncle~~~i do indeed feel a sense of freedom..not hiding the lie that was in my life, not stressing when i ran out of pills, i do feel a sense of accomplishment...thank you for recognizing that!

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by unclenasty93

O.K., I guess I'll chime in with my 2 cents. This is in regards to all the recent discussion and debate about methadone and suboxone. No, of course you are not "entirely" clean and sober if you are on one of those. They are both opiates and potentially addictive. The definition of clean is to not be taking any mind or mood altering substances. The difference, though, between being on meth or sub versus the other opiates is that it is a HUGE change for the better and a very courageous act in dealing with one's addiction. When we begin taking meth or sub, we start living a much different life right away. No longer is our whole day and our whole life consumed by drugs. We now can actually live, we now actaully have some freedom. It is such a miserable, horrendous existence when our entire life is spent either using, trying to score, feeling terrible from coming down, finding elaborate ways to hide what we're doing, etc... Meth and sub can free people from all of that ****!! It also takes a ton of courage to give up your biggest security blanket. It takes a ton of courage to change in any way. I applaud and have the utmost respect for those of you on meth or sub. Whether you are on it a week or forever, good job! You all are brave, courageous people, who are doing something to fight this monster. Addictions are powerful beyond belief. They own us and control us. When someone steps up and says "I'm gonna get help, I'm gonna get the treatment I need to get better", they deserve enormous respect. How dare anybody belittle anothers efforts at treatment because they are on meth or sub and not off everything! Giving up our drugs of choice and all the patterns of living that go hand in hand with them is scary even terrifying. Thank God we have medications available to us that can help ease that fear, help ease that pain. Be proud of yourselves, those of you on meth or sub. You are brave, you are courageous and you sure as hell have my respect!!

peace. mike.

Hmmmm....interesting.

No one is *belittling* someone's choice to use Sub or MMT as short-term interim way to bridge from their DOC to sobriety.

The word *belittle* doesn't enter into this discussion.

There is no such thing as being "not entirely clean". That's like being just somewhat pregnant. One is either clean or not clean. Pregnant or not pregnant. It's a no brainer. You can't qualify the word.

Potentially addicting? You've got to be kidding. There is nothing remotely questionable about the potential. They are. Try coming off of either. Again, a no brainer. Methadone is the most addicting of all opioids...and Sub is her very close, younger sibling.

Ton of courage to give up a security blanket? Methadone and Sub are just another security blanket. A blanket of a different color...and far more smothering than the original DOC's. An easier obtainable, cheaper security blanket. Yup...no doubt...it's a lot more comforting to have Methadone or Sub handy and legal. No more scrounging...at least to begin with in the case of Methadone.

We continue to look for the *magic bullet*...anything so we don't have to look to ourselves...in ourselves.

There is no magic bullet out there. The *magic bullet* lies within...clean & sober...abstinent.

The *ton of courage* that is spoken of comes from the addicts who put down their substance, detox from that substance...be it Oxy, Hydro, Methadone or Sub, etc... Those addicts who say "no more". Those addicts who get and stay clean. That, for me, is the definition of a *ton of courage*.

To view a *ton of courage*, visit Methadone & Sub detox forums. Read what goes on there. That's where the *ton of courage* is. The courage is not on the lines at Methadone clinics or in Sub doctor's office.

Look outside the box.

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[abey042000]

Very well said....Ar!

Luv-n-Respect,

[sparky]

I am getting it....slowly but surely....I will "get it"....to be clean and sober in the true sence of the word...to be abstinent from anything mind altering.....i think I relapsed for a reason...a learning reason...my first time around using sub and then weaning off sub....I struggled terribly with not being able to sleep...so I was taking anything to help me...ambien, lunesta, soma, xanax.....not even considering that I was still just using another unnatural means to accomplish what I so desire....so, that being said my relapse was also about getting a good nights sleep...I was so annoyed with it...anyway...what I have learned is this time around once I wean from sub...there will be no more help other than what is natural..relaxation techniques, herbal teas, etc. That part I am getting....clean means clean...at least for me

[sparky]

another thought....know that these typings are not directed at any of you...its my way of relating my experience to you in hopes that maybe one little thing thats happened to me will help in your recovery too..............because it helps just typing out my thoughts...its like sharing at a meeting a little.........so my thought ...I was thinking how light I had taken my addiction and recovery. This is no small thing...this is huge....to get on with life without the use of drugs...because it will take me over...and possibly even kill me...this is serious...my/our recovery......I really think I have still been in denial, not so much that yes I can say I am an addict and I need to quit...but that its seriously going to cause some damage somewhere in my life...even more so than it already has...if I don't quit...I somehow think I am smarter than "addict" and thats where I have been fooling myself...I am an addict in the full sence of the word....I REALLY cannot handle anything mind altering EVER...what a stubborn truth....do you know what I mean.....

[tinkers]

All,

My 2 cents on this subject! I know that I am on sub and that I'm not completly clean but I am sure that I have a fredom that I dident have on the pain pills and my life is now manageable and thats good enough for me right now no more lieing cheating and whatever else I had too do to get what I wanted so too all you in my boat BE HAPPY you are doing the right thing and if you want to call yourself clean then do it because the real FACT is your life is better now and will keep getting better as time goes on this I know as FACT.

ROB

[angler204]

quote:Originally posted by arlenewla

Actually, Adam...you hit this on the nosey!

This is the junkie coming out...no question in my mind.

And I'm going to qualify what I say by telling you that I come from a very abstinent point of view....as in no addictive, mood altering drugs inclusive of alcohol.

For me, getting past the concept that there was a pill for everything and anything that ailed me was huge.

Totally habituated to choosing the easier, softer way.

When we're newly clean, if we want to be clean & sober with any long-lasting recovery, we have to change our thinking.

The fatigue of early recovery is normal. It's just part of the process.

Give your body a chance to heal. Give it a chance for the natural serotonin and endorphins to kick in.

Don't jump to take something else. That's what we've done all our freaking lives...when in doubt, we took something.

And no, taking Ativan or other benzo's, is not better than taking Percodan, Oxy, Methadone, Vicodin, etc.

Ativan, stimulants and booze are about the substitution method. A method that is very dangerous to those looking to recover.

We choose substitutes because we're too impatient.

We look to substitutes because we seek to constantly change our state of consciousness. So, the switch up in recovery is to change our state of consciousness by changing our thinking and approach to life...to not take something everytime we're *uncomfortable* nor impatient.

It's about instant gratification. And for us, instant gratification takes too long, huh?

Want to have energy? Take a pill. Want to be calm? Take a pill.

I would humbly suggest that this is *stinkin' thinkin'.*

Additionally, for me, it was key to remember the fatigue. To remember feeling sh*tty. To remember the sleeplessness. To remember the aches and pains.

That which I don't remember, I am doomed to repeat!

And on the subject of sleeplnessness, taking stimulants is absolutely counter-productive. Anxiety, shakes and insomnia are definite side effects of these drugs.

I can't speak for you, but I know, for me, I had plenty of anxiety, shakes and insomnia going on during detox and PAWS without adding stimulants to the scenario.

I noted the advice regarding not taking stimulants the every day because they're addicting.

Again, I don't know if I'm sicker than others, but if I could control the taking of any addicting medication, I wouldn't be a frigging addict. An addict in control of addicting meds? An oxymoron.

Look...the odds for long-term (defined as more than 1 year) recovery from this disease are woefully low. Usually given as 5-7%.

Please...don't further stack the odds against you by ingesting something else. Warmly, Ar



Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

Arlene,
I know you're right. I do not make excuses for my addiction. I had a rough day and was looking for the softer easier way out as you said. I appreciate your honesty! Without being honest about my problem I'd be back at square 1.

Some good news...I'm on day 17 clean. I have to tell people that if you are trying to get clean I think one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IS TO GET SOME SLEEP. If I didn't get decent sleep I'd feel tired and think about nothing but how can I feel better, more up, more awake and we know where those thoughts lead to. I've gotten some sleep aids and feel great today. Yesterday I actually went 4-5 hrs without even thinking about the pills...which for me is a record.
SLEEP IS CRITICAL! I feel like a new person today and the cravings are less severe where you aren't tired or feeling bad due to lack of sleep.

HOPE THIS HELPS. EVERYONE TAKE CARE!

angler

[sparky]

Hi Tinkers....yes, I agree, taking the sub step was huge, finally giving me freedom from all the B.S. that goes with using....for that I am forever grateful that there was something like suboxone on the market...I know there are no exacts for how long one should stay on sub...we are all different....and education is key..its all a process...growing and living without the drugs....we are on our way... with some up and downs and detours along the way...but thats ok...the biggest step was making the sub call...now its about not stopping or giving up until we reach the final goal of total sobriety...and then learning to stay that way with the great support out there for us

[yellowsquirrel]

hello everyone.. i have lurked for a little while now but never wanted to post, mostly because i was afraid to admit i'm "one of those people" with a problem. i'm not sure how much to say because i'm so terrified for anyone to realize who i am. i have a chronic illness that leaves me in constant pain. my doctor has prescribed narcotic pain relief for upwards of five years now. i started on 5mg vicodin and went up, past vike ES, past Norco, til i hit the tylenol wall and was switched to kadian, which is slow-release oral morphine sulfate that i'm given to understand is similar to oxy-contin. anyway obviously i wouldn't be here if i didn't know i have a problem. my painkillers are all prescribed but that doesn't mean i don't find ways to take a little more than i should... my pharmacy lets me fill a scrip one week early. but what finally drove me to post here is that my pain management doctor wrote me a new scrip today for something i've never been on before: methadone. 5mg tablets. i was supposed to start on one tablet a day, cut them in half and take half every 12 hours, but like the uncontrolled addict that i am, as soon as i got home i popped two pills immediately. it was stupid. i know. i thought maybe here was the one place i could ask for help without being judged. i'm reading about methodone now and from what i'm seeing it works differently than the narc meds i'm used to. it releases slower and doesn't kick in immediately. now i understand why my doctor told me to start with half a tablet every 12 hours and stay on that dose for 4 days before increasing to 1.5 tabs a day, again for 4 days, then up it to 2 tabs a day... you get the idea. now i'm worried. exactly HOW stupid was it to take a full 10mg immediately? i took it an hour ago and i don't feel anything -- and by that i mean marked pain relief, i know methodone doesn't give a high -- but i haven't taken my regular dose of kadian yet today so i'm really starting to feel the lack of pain meds. i'm afraid to take the kadian now. is the methadone suddenly going to kick in and knock me over? how long should i wait before i know if i can take my regular stuff? this probably isn't the stupidest narcotic related thing i've done, but it's got to be up there.

thanks to everyone even if you can't help me.

alex

[LISA GIRL]

Alex..Sorry I feel for you but no help from me.. I don't know anything about how methadone works or the mg...hope someone here can help you.

Angler...I agree sleep is key! My sub doc prescribed me ambien. I was hesitant to take it nightly due to the potential for addiction...he told me of all the studies relating to w/d and how sleep is paramount to success..while it may be addicting in the long run, he felt it was a secondary issue to what I am dealing with and would rather see me addicted to sleep aids than painkillers. Of course I am not sure that is the right mindset, but I have slept every night. And you are right, that makes all the difference...Congratulations on another clean day!

Uncle Nasty...I agree with you, but probably not an argument we will win here. We all have different opinions and for me, being clean of painkillers that get me "high" is enough. To each his/her own...Good to see you again!

[arlenewla]

'Morning ~

I don't want it to appear as if I'm *beating up* on Sub and Methadone patients.

Nothing could be further than the truth.

That would be like beating up on myself, huh?

All I'm attempting to say is that it's important to know...to fully understand...the dues that come with both Sub & Methadone when one tries to get off...and stay off.

Are Sub & Methadone *life saving* for many [u]in the beginning</u>? Yup. Certainly was true for my first 3 years on Methadone.

However, the longer one stays on...the greater the difficulty encountered WD'ing...the longer the duration of PAWS....the greater the risk for relapse back to one's DOC.

It becomes a vicious cycle. And I also think that, at that point, it's very easy to buy into the endorphin deficiency for life syndrome. A fellacious concept, IMHO.

Sooo...life saving on one hand...and defeatist after at certain point in time.

Each of us has to determine that point in time. Warmly, Ar

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[tinkers]

What is PAWS?

[unclenasty93]

Arlene,

You are obviously very experienced with this disease and all that goes along with it. I also really admire the fact that after a long stint on methadone you were able to stop. I will disagree with one thing you said in your response to my post, however. It, atleast for some, does take "ton's of courage" to switch to meth or sub. I realize they are still on powerful, addictive drugs, but the differences are immense. To go from using something that you love many times a day, to just taking meth or sub once a day is very scary. My whole life revolves around using 5 times a day and "everyting" is planned around it. For me, going from that to just getting something "once" a day is a terrifying thought. I also am fearful of not getting high anymore. With my doc I get to feel the euphoric feeling I'm looking for, not meth or sub.

It's just all very scary. The massive changes, no longer getting high, new life patterns, losing a huge security blanket, only taking something one time a day, all of it scares me. So yes, it does take an enormous amount of courage, for some, to get on meth or sub. I do agree with you, though, it takes even more courage to get off everything. I am trying to find the strength to start meth or sub, that is one of the reasons I started coming here. I do want to be clean, BADLY, I just have a lot of fear I need to get past. Enough for now. peace.

[yellowsquirrel]

hello i do not know if Arlene's post was intended to me or not, but if it was, i apologize for the misunderstanding. i am not on methadone as a replacement for anything -- i'm not trying to get clean, at least not right now. for me, the methadone is intended to supplement kadian in its capacity as a painkiller.

i have been taking kadian for over a year at the same dose and i'm now tolerant to it to the point where it isn't relieving my pain effectively anymore and i started taking extra pills. all the time. lots of extra pills. i told my doc i did not want vicodin or perks for breakthrough pain because i'm an addict (well i didn't say that word to her) and they're too easy to abuse. back when i was taking those short acting pills regularly as my only pain medication, i was constantly taking too many and they weren't lasting long enough and i was miserable all the time on a roller coaster of highs and crashes. that was a bad point in my life. i have felt worlds better since switching to kadian. i take the pills every 12 hours and it releases slowly and steadily so i have the same level of opiate in my system all the time instead of counting hours until my next dose.

the methadone is supposed to be the same way, except that it takes longer to begin working. it's just... i came home with the bottle and the little white tablets look just like vicodin only smaller... and they reminded me of popping a few vicodin and feeling my depression and pain lift for a couple hours... so i just swallowed two 5mg tabs before i could help myself. it didn't make me feel anything so i'm not tempted to do it again, but i'm kind of sad that i did it at all. i guess it's going to be a very long time before i can trust myself with anything short-acting.

i intended to start over again and take the methadone the way i was instructed but when i tried to cut the pill in half it sort of exploded under the knife and one half scooted into the sink and the other basically disintegrated. i can't risk wasting another one like that or i'll run out earlier than i was supposed to and it's not like anyone is going to believe that i accidentally ruined two of my pills trying to cut them. i was instructed to take 1 pill every day for the first four days, i was just supposed to do it by taking half a pill in the morning and another half at night. since i can't cut them i just took a whole one in the morning and skipped the evening. i don't know what to do after 4 days when i'm supposed to start taking 1 and a half pills. i'm thinking probably just keep on the 1 pill for longer than the 4 days and then switch to 2 pills after a week so i'll have the right number left at the end of the month?

alex

[libby_R]

hi guys i need some help.
my partner has been addicted to neurofen plus for the last 6 years he has reduced down to just 5 a day he was up until last year taking 38-40 a day. the reason im writing is to get some help and advice from u guys in dealing with this,i want to support him and encourage him with beating this terrible addiction nobody else but me know about his addiction so any advice u guys can give me in helping me help him would be great.. thanks for taking the time to read this and i hope u willbe able to advise me .......

elizabeth

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by unclenasty93
I do want to be clean, BADLY, I just have a lot of fear I need to get past.

'Morning Mike ~

I very well understand what you're saying about fear...and the switch up to no longer seeking that *euphoric high*.

And yes, no doubt that we are totally habituated to the *act* of taking something...multiple times a day.

But there comes a time...for some sooner than later...that *euphoria* is elusive. We keep chasing the initial feeling...never obtainable again.

And in the chase, we take more and more...and down and down we go. It's inevitable.

I also understand the issue of fear. I understand it at my core.

For me, fear and shame, are the great blockers to change. We become paralyzed.

The fear of change is something that challenges all human souls. It hits we addicts particularly hard.

There's a very old joke...gallows humor, if you will.

"How many addicts does it take to change a lightbulb?"

"Change? What change?"[:0]

Consideration of change causes the fear of the unknown. We do not like unknown factors in our lives. That's why we use. Rather simplistic...but it's about the *constistency* of *expected* feelings.

A line from Drugstore Cowboy speaks to this regarding uncertainty.

"Most people don't know how they're gonna feel from one moment to the next. But dope fiends have a pretty good idea. All you gotta do is look at the labels on the little bottles..."

Sooo...when we finally make the decision that we need change...not the necessarily the same as wanting change...it's all about fear.

One of those major OH SH*T, I'M F*CKED MOMENTS, huh? Now what?

In giving up *control*...in the *surrender*...to a disease over which we have no control in the first place, we have to take a leap of faith. A leap of faith that others have walked this path before us and come out on the other side.

Now giving up control may come in different forms...at different levels of transition.

For some, it's tapering or CTing from their DOC.

For others, it may be first going onto Sub or Methadone.

For others, it may be coming off of Sub or Methadone.

For others, it may be 12 Step Programs.

Whatever the *it*...getting clean takes work...and change. Warmly, Ar


Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[angler204]

quote:Originally posted by libby_R

hi guys i need some help.
my partner has been addicted to neurofen plus for the last 6 years he has reduced down to just 5 a day he was up until last year taking 38-40 a day. the reason im writing is to get some help and advice from u guys in dealing with this,i want to support him and encourage him with beating this terrible addiction nobody else but me know about his addiction so any advice u guys can give me in helping me help him would be great.. thanks for taking the time to read this and i hope u willbe able to advise me .......

elizabeth

Libby, your support is extremely important. I know I could not have quite opiates without the help of my wife. She has been very supportave which has been one of the biggest factors in my staying clean. I've only been clean for about 20 days but let me tell you it's not an easy thing. I went cold turkey with a little help from xanax for the with drawals and a sleep aid. Sleep is probably the other most important factor in recovery. Make sure he gets sleep one way or another. A lot of people say cold turkey may not be the way. It's the only way for me. I have an addictive personality...it's either all or nothing with me. Make a plan and stick to it...have him take a few days off 4 or 5 if possible and just suck it up and know it will get better. I am a perfect example. The only time I think about the drugs now is when I don't get a good night sleep (need a pick-me-up) or have a minor pain somewhere.
I feel like a new man that has taken control of my life. No pill is going to control me, and if I can do it anyone can.
Good luck...be very supportive. You can't possibly imagine the hold these things can have on people. You reading from this site will help you understand though.

Angler

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by tinkers

What is PAWS?

Post Acute Withdrawl Syndrome.[xx(]

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[sparky]

Uncle nasty.....when you get to the point that you finally need to quit...you no longer have euphoria or they are far and few ....there are a few choices...of which have been listed.......for me....and I was fearful too about much the same as you......but the suboxone amazingly lifted the obsessive need to keep grabbing the drug of choice....no terrible w/d ....

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by libby_R

hi guys i need some help.
my partner has been addicted to neurofen plus for the last 6 years he has reduced down to just 5 a day he was up until last year taking 38-40 a day. the reason im writing is to get some help and advice from u guys in dealing with this,i want to support him and encourage him with beating this terrible addiction nobody else but me know about his addiction so any advice u guys can give me in helping me help him would be great.. thanks for taking the time to read this and i hope u willbe able to advise me .......

elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth ~

I think its wonderful that you care so much and have the compassion to post and ask for input. Your partner is very forunate to have you by his side.

And while you can support him, you can't do this for him. The final action is on him...it will take committment on his part.

Yes, you can listen....be supportive, but in the end, he has to get clean & sober.

I would like to suggest that perhaps he attend some type of 12 Step Program where he can receive the identification with other addicts/alcoholics who are in recovery.

You see, Elizabeth, as understanding as you may be, if you're not a recovering person, it's going to be hard for him to share specific things with you.

Perhaps you can get him to post or read on varying sites such as this.

What do you think? Warmly, Arlene

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[unclenasty93]

thanks arlene and sparky. I am sooooooooooo frustrated and miserable in my life right now due to the fact that I just can't seem to begin treatment. I am wanting to go on meth or sub or even go into detox, but I can't seem to find the strength to do it! You guys are right, the "euphoria" sure aint what it used to be. I rarely even get high anymore, it is now just habit and staving off wd's. The ironic thing is, I have been clean before. I was clean for 2 years in 2001 and 2002. I have also been to treatment and detox several times each. Why the **** am I having so much trouble this time!!!??? I sware to God I am ready to jump off a bridge! This disease is maddening. It is so amazing to me that despite a world of negative consequences, I continue every day. I don't think there is a more powerful force on earth than an addiction. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! OK that's enough ranting. Arlene, I wanted to ask you more about methadone. I am thinking about going on it with the intention of using it for a taper. I would like to only take it for maybe 1 to 3 months, and keep my dose from getting real high. Is this practical? If I am only on it a couple months will it still be horrible to get off or will the tapering down not be to bad? Also, do you, atleast at first, feel satisfied? Does it saciate the cravings and calm the obsession? Any answers and info would be great. I think next week is the week I start something. Peace. Mike.

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by unclenasty93
OK that's enough ranting. Arlene, I wanted to ask you more about methadone. I am thinking about going on it with the intention of using it for a taper. I would like to only take it for maybe 1 to 3 months, and keep my dose from getting real high. Is this practical? If I am only on it a couple months will it still be horrible to get off or will the tapering down not be to bad? Also, do you, atleast at first, feel satisfied? Does it saciate the cravings and calm the obsession? Any answers and info would be great. I think next week is the week I start something. Peace. Mike.

'Morning Mike ~

Since I'm new to the forum, can you tell me what you're taking and how much...and for how long at this point?

Methadone is not child's play, Mike. And what seems to be happening frequently these days is that addicts whose habits are not *large* are getting on Methadone. And for many it's like shooting a fly with a cannon.

This is not...in any way...to say that addiction is a *comparative* issue. Whatever amount causes unmanagability and wreckage in life is more than problematic.

But the DOC, amounts and duration of use does most definitely come into play when making the determination of choosing Methadone.

As an example, I would not advise someone whose DOC is Hydro to go on Methadone.

Yes...Methadone very effectively staves off the craving and obsession to use...particularly with very short-term use.

What happened to me is that after the first 3 years, the craving and obsession returned...big time! I was f*cked. Or should I say, I f*cked myself. I take full responsibility here for my abuse of Methadone. I did the same thing...years 3 - 15 on Methadone that I did while on Percodan for 7 years.

Okay, let's say that you're on Oxy and you elect to go onto Methadone with a plan of doing it for 1 - 3 months keeping your dose *low*.

You should be aware of several things.

The odds of coming off in 1 - 3 months are stacked against you. One to 3 months of MMT is rare....very rare.

Clinics will usually put you on a starting dose of 40mg and take you up quickly...very quickly...from there.

They say the *average* dose is somewhere between 80 - 100mg.

I believe this is *myth*. Methadone doses are routinely much, much higher these days.

See, once in the Clinic system a different mentality will take over. They will tell you that you need to get *stable* on Methadone. That your dose has to get *stable* (read as higher). That you need to give yourself a chance for *recovery*.

Well, it sounds great on the face of it...sounds really good. And the longer it sounds good, the longer (most likely) that you'll stay on it. The longer you stay on, the higher your dose.

There is increased tolerance on Methadone...something that is a deep, dark, dirty secret.

The longer you stay, the higher the dose, the less likely you'll ever try to come off. And if you should make that decision, it's very, very hard. If you think coming off of your DOC is hard, you ain't seen nothing yet.

For this very reason, once on Methadone, usually always on Methadone. Fact. There's a syndrome called the *graying of the Methadone population* going on. People who are in their 50's, 60's...still on Methadone for years and years and years. On walkers and canes too early in life.

Okay...so let's say you do manage to come off in 1 - 3 months and that you've kept your dose low...as in under 50mg. Let's say you've successfully managed this. Then what?

You ask to start to taper.

Methadone Clinics will be in charge of your taper...they will say when and how much. For the most part, they are not supportive of people looking to come off and place obstacles in one's path. They'll give every reason why you can't do this. So, you'll have to advocate for yourself to get to -0-. Not easy when you feel lousy.

Okay...you get to -0-. Bravo!

Again, now what?

Well, the *what* is that you're going to feel like sh*t. With Methadone's exceedingly long half-life, it's going to take you a very long time to feel approximately close to *normal*. There is a greater duration of PAWS for coming off of Methadone than other opioids...far greater...the longest of any.

Have you considered Sub? While Sub also has a long-half life and therefore long duration of PAWS, it's got a couple of more positive things going on as opposed to Methadone.

First, and foremostly, one's tolerance does not increase.

Sub is done in licensed private physician's offices (they just raised the cap from 30 to 100 patients per doctor, BTW). Therefore, you are not in an environment that surrounds a Methadone Clinic. You will not have to report 7 days a week for dosing. You will not be around addicts who are either abusing their Methadone, selling their Methadone and still using their DOC, selling benzo's, etc. You will not be left to the vagueries of Clinic-demeaning treatment.

Sub should also be used short-term....very short term. Again, unfortunately, this is not happening. The longer Sub is around, the longer patients are staying on it.

Coming off will be difficult...but easier than Methadone. You will more likely be able to have a diaglogue with the dispensing physician who will work with you to that goal.

Tell me....how did you get clean and stay clean for 2 years? What was your process then?

Phew...I just wrote another book.

Looking forward to hearing from you. Warmly, Ar




Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[mpvt]

Methadone is a serious drug and I agree that most people have no idea what they are getting into.The doctors at the clinics should be screening these people.They (the patients) can't really be blamed as they are trying to get help.These clinics put people on methadone that have a 3-4 year opiate addiction and that's just not enough.Each case is unique I agree but generally methadone should be that absolute last resort.Sure it takes away an addicts problems when they've but if they are not heavily addicted and had chemical and physical changes in the brain then they are generally headed for trouble.I know people that have been on methadone for 7 years and they still nod out,thats rediculous.I was addicted for 22 years and did opiates everyday,I have never been in full withdrawl.I went to rehab twice ect ect.I don't nod out on methadone and I don't sit around doing nothing but watching Jerry Springer and stuffing my face.These poor people that are doing this are the ones that should never have been put on methadone in the first place but is it their fault.Other then people trying to get on methadone to get high I would say that most just want to get better from abusing opiates.This is why the clinic's have to be more stringent and not take people because they can afford to pay for it.My doctor won't take anyone unless they have been addicted for a minimum of 5 years and been to rehab or a psyche ward at least once.If your on benzo's or taking coke or anything else other then opiates then he won't treat you.To many times clinics put people on methadone and they continue to abuse other drugs.This is were the clinics have to start detoxing these people as it's obvious that they are not ready to enter recovery.Methadone is a good med but it has to be used wisely and it has to start with the doctors and how they decide who should be on it..........Dave

[sparky]

good morning.........haven't seen a few people here in awhile... some regular posters...how are you all...hope well....in all this hustle and bustle leading to xmas.....have a great weekend