[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by nymommy
we are all just discussing options..and looking for support..which you clearly have none too offer...bye bye now...

While I understand what you're saying nymommy, I think there's a difference in support and sugar coating the effects of BMT/MMT.

Yes...by all means...support and encouragement. However, that doesn't mean living in a fantasy that there won't be heavy dues to be paid from either of these drugs.

I am a huge advocate of attending NA/AA meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to get clean/sober.

That being said, members are asked not to share if they have had a drink or drug in the past 24 hours. This is inclusive of Methadone. Bup, to my knowledge, is not specifically addressed in Pamphlet 29 given that it was written before the introduction of Sub into the addict community. Why are they asked not to share if alcohol, Methadone or any other drug has been ingested within 24 hours? Because they can't share in a cogent, clear-headed manner, sober manner.

In sobriety, there is difference of clarity. Senses are acute, not dulled. Emotions are not dulled. The word of the day is "feelings"...something that is often Lost in Translation on any and all drugs...other than the maudlin and victim-stance type of feelings.

So yes and again yes....12 Step Programs, working the Steps, sponsor, meetings, being of service. IMHO, they are critical to the needed changes in re-learning behavior, re-learning the art of responding in lieu of reacting, refining character traits that have gotten out of whack, an attitude of gratitude.

Let's talk Methadone for a minute...a topic with which I am intimately familiar.

I was on MMT for 15 years...@250mg. It took me 5+1/2 months locked down in an inpatient detox to get off of it. Fact. It took another 8 months until I slept 2 hours a night. Fact. No free lunch...no easier softer way.

I will state unequivocally that Methadone changes ones perception of life. One becomes numb, lethargic, suffers from constipation, lack of sex drive, sweats, enormous weight gains, edema. And whie this may not happen immediately, the longer one is on, the negatives will begin to outweigh the original positives.

The most insidious part of Methadone is that tolerance and craving increases. Doses are obsencely and routinely high. Lives are infringed upon my Clinic administrators. Pee on demand. Line up on demand. Do call backs on demand. They don't call it liquid handcuffs for nothing.

If one is on Methadone for pain management, the longer on the drug, the less efficacious the Methadone is for that pain. Actually, it begins to create a rebound pain syndrome. The more Methadone, the greater the pain and then the more Methadone you need to quell the pain. Vicious cycle.

Benzo's & Methadone are a fatal combination. There's nothing mysterious here...nor new. The fatality issues aside, ever see Methadone patients at Clinics who are taking benzo's as well? They're frigging loaded! Sucking their socks, as is said.

This being said, please know that if you intend to use BMT/MMT as short-term bridges to abstinence...which is what they were designed for...then go for it. But please also know that even short-term has it's dues. The longer the term on either, the bigger the balloon payment.

<center>"The therapuetic value of one addict helping another is without parallel."</center>

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[abey042000]

I have not meant to be sarcastic at all. I was simply trying to put the truths out there is all. I responded the very first time because after reading the posts I had to speak up. Their are alot of misinformed people about this drug. It was never started to make ppl angry. Just simply stating what I have learned and researched FROM the very best.

BTW, Lisa&Mort

I am far from being insecure. Obviously u two are since u chose to use "CRUTCHES" after wanting to quit ur Doc, at the same time being in denial still.

NYmommy~
CT detox is the easiest fastest way for me. Why would I wanna prolong my WD, and make it worse then the natural way?

[nymommy]

arlene~~~your posts seem to come from a place of information/education...were abbeys come from malice...i appreciate your knowledge, and i am now on 1/2 of sub a day ( 1mg)i have followed my taper to a tee, and fortunatley been successful ( never safe though)...posts that are sooo negative, do no one good..and isnt that what this forum is about??? i know when i started here (3mos ago) there was NO negative energy...information yes, but never in a confrontational way...i welcome your posts cause they seem to come from a place, where maybe we can learn....not in a backstabbing, negative way~~~~abbey again, how have you maintained your 90 days?????

[LISA GIRL]

Well said NYMOMMY... Abbey has not posted a drip of information about methadone.. only has said that Morticia knows nothing about it. She has said she would "demise" (I believe she meant the correct word "despise") being her...etc etc... Where is the information? There is none, just sarcasm, malice, insecurity.rude comments.. I can guess why that is Abey.. I should pity you really....Yes, I am now two months on suboxone and if you see that as indicator of insecurity than so be it. Weakness? Not really but that would be closer than insecurity. Trust me.. I am not insecure. Your need to tell falsehoods (euphemism--look it up) about the status of your sobriety and the constant need to bring others down are the real signs of insecurity.

[abey042000]

NY~

CT the natural way! Also to continue my sobriety, I believe that G-D has lifted my complusivness from this disease. I also attend a couple support groups as well as being honest to MYSELF whether I agree or not with the facts of addiction/disease.

[nymommy]

amen lisa!!! abbey a more detailed account of your CT would be sooo helpful to many...we are waiting!..what was it like???

[arlenewla]

Hi again Lisa & Nymommy

(BTW, where in NY are you?...I'm a transplanted LI girl now living in West Los Angeles)

Well, you ask some really good questions...specifically about PAWS.

PAWS stands for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. PAWS is a compilation of side effects secondary to acute WD experienced by recovering opioid & benzo addicts in particular...as well as alcoholics to some extent.

PAWS includes: 1.Inability to think clearly, 2.Memory problems,
3.Emotional overreactions or numbness, 4.Sleep disturbances, 5.Physical coordination problems & 6. Stress sensitivity

The depth and length of PAWS is very individually based. It's dependent upon length of using history & amounts as well age and any other pre-existing physical/psychiatric issues that the recovering addict may bring to the table.

So, for example, I got clean at the age of 55+1/2. I used opioids for 22 years...the last 15 of which were on Methadone. My dose was 250mg per day. All in all, I was a rather poor candidate to get clean and sober. In other words, I was rather f*cked up! LOL.

My acute WD from Methadone was intense. Actually it s*cked. The PAWS portion was also intense and of very long duration.

I experienced literally almost a year of semi-living hell. I couldn't focus on anything. I had almost no long term or short-term memory. I probably looked like someone with ADD...which I'm not. I was alternately numb and hyper. I laughed hysterically...and cried hysterically....or absolutely inurred to any emotion at all...flat affect.

Sleep disturbance (or lack of any sleep) was probably the longest lasting of all PAWS syndrome...it took me until 1 year clean to begin to get 2 hours of sleep a night...literally. I was a total klutz...my bones and joint felt like piano wires were pulling them. And lastly, if you said "boo" to me, I thought it was the end of the world. I was a b*tch to all who encountered me. I was depressed...I was manic. Probably would have been diagnosed as BiPolar if someone had done a psych eval at the time.

Now, personally, I chose not to take any medications whatsoever to alleviate any of these symptoms. No antidepressants, no sleep meds, no benzos. I'm a frigging garden variety addict and believe that I will abuse everything and anything given the chance.

Abstinence, for me, is sacrosanct. Today, the obsession to use has been lifted. I work on issues of emotional sobriety...the perception of the world in a very different manner from when I was using.

Following those 5+1/2 months I spent kicking inpatient detox, I entered a rehab. I now work for that same rehab and have for 3+1/2 years.

If you had told me 4+ years ago that I would have the freedom I now enjoy, I would have said no f*cking way! My life has turned around 180degrees.

My concern is that Methadone & Bupe are sold as a panacea to those of us in desperation. And while it's extremely helpful in the short-term, they are far from utopian drugs. They carry huge price tags...HUGE!

Look...they say hindsight is 20/20. And I've got a lot of personal 20/20 going on.

I thought Methadone was G-D's gift. I thought it would be like insulin for a diabetic. I lived in a fantasy. I actually was looking for the easier, softer way out of a 7 years Percodan addiction.

Instead of finding an easier, softer way, I upped the ante substantially when I went to Methadone.

My tolerance grew exponentially while on Methadone. I began to abuse it. Cravings grew.

I believe the reason to be because I had done nothing to change myself. I just tried to mask the issues that had brought me into active addiction in the first instance. And as much Methadone as I put in my body, the worse those issues became.

Getting clean & sober is work...hard work. But I can promise you that the gifts abound. Life is sweet. It's a whole new world. I world I embrace...in it's ups and downs. No longer living in the fear.

I hope this helps give you some insight as to why I'm posting here.

If I can be of any further assistance, please....you need only ask. You would be doing me a favor. Part of my program to stay sober is to give back that which was so freely given to me. Warmly, Arlene


Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[LISA GIRL]

Ok my last retaliatory comment for the night. Abbey.. your post of 9/27/06 on another thread says that you are actively using lorcet. How is it then that you claim to be clean 90 days and then judge Morticia and I for using transitional drugs? You are either a hypocrite or really bad with math.

Arlene.. I apologize that you found us in a current state of drama. This thread has not been one of those until recently and it is embarassing to me and I'm sure others here. At the same time, I am not one to speak my mind.

You tell an INCREDIBLE story. Do you do any public speaking as well? You are very well spoken (writing) and one can tell you really know your stuff!

I am assuming by acute w/d you mean the intial symptoms of w/d ..physical withdrawal symptoms etc...?? How long after acute w/d does the PAWS set in or are they overlapping?

I admire your ability to work thru the sleep deprivation. That alone would drive me I am sure to take an aid of some sort. I went c/t my first time around at this and the inability to sleep was the worst part hands down.

You should write a book! And ok, I have to ask your take on Million Little Pieces since you were a patient and now work in a rehab facility. I loved the book, but questioned so much of it before the truth all came out. So much just rang untrue. Do you think it was a betrayal to addicts or still of some benefit. I have heard both schools of thought.....

Anyway, now I'm writing a book. so will quit for the evening... (you will notice I can tend to be a bit wordy but that's the english major in me.)

I know we will all learn from your experience. Thank you for sharing it with us.


***Still looking for Patmamma, Lazer, Angela H, Kaidog...please let us know how you are doing!****

[chrish1]

Arlene... WOW!

Thank you. That was beautiful.

Chrish

Clean Date: 10/11/05

Drugs are a big lie. Don't believe the lie.

***HOW TO FIND LOCAL NA MEETINGS****

http://www.na.org/links-toc.htm

[mattyA]

Arlene and Abbey, you both seem to be pretty well versed in all this; I was wondering if you could shed some insight on my currrent situation. I Have been using painkillers for a couple years off and on, been clean for several weeks in this time. I have been on them for about the last 4 1/2 months(50-85mgs a day). I realize this dosage doesn't seem like alot compared to others, but I know from past experience I am very addicted. I am currently VERY stressed about getting completley clean, but as you very well know, detox isn't exatly someting that easily falls into a very busy schedule. I have been considering a very short term Bupe taper(3-4 days), and have heard mixed things about it. My goal is to obviously get through this as easy as possible, missing as little work as possible. I have read that if someone is stablized at like 40mgs(hydro), a 3-4 day bupe taper can be quite effective in alleviating withdrawls. I am going to try to taper myself down to like 10mgs and jump off, but as you know, my desire to distance myself from these pills is unbelievable. Any info is appreciated.

[sparky]

Hi there.....Before I sat on the computer I had some thoughts about this 2nd time around use of sub....Funny....now that I have read the recent posts.....I really am wondering if I am doing my self more long term harm allowing myself to linger a little longer on sub....1st time around it was used to wean off of a lengthy use of vikes....I stayed on sub for 21 days...and then was off overthing....I was big on claiming myself only at that time truely off of opiates.....I believe that still...my sub use scares me in that if allowed I may become addicted to that as well...so that being said....may I put the question out there ....what is a reasonable time to be on suboxone....My second time around use of sub was a result of backsliding and took vikes again for 2 weeks...got on sub again....almost 2 weeks....the mental mindset is different this time...I am not as devoted to healthiness....and I feel down on my self for having back slid.......

[sparky]

thats it ....I am missing emotional sobriety....PAWS...thats where the support comes in...the committment to come clean...so as long as I am on sub....the longer I do not get a hold of my emotional sobriety...the more at risk I am.....I really need emotional support to stay away from these drugs....NA

[sparky]

About 1 month ago or so I was really big on claiming how important it is to get off sub as well....I felt so much better during those days than I do now...my self esteem was up..I really was on the path to recovery....although I still may be on the path....it has taken a detour of which I am not so sure its safe...you know I am just venting ....my last 3 posts....I really think I need to get off sub ASAP....really start concentrating on my weaning again....because coming off sub is no party either......sorry to ramble...but thanks
for listening

[nymommy]

~~arlene...welcome.. welcome.. welcome!! your story is riveting, and your insight so needed! you couldnt of come here at a better time..a few of us are on the sub, like i mentioned i'm currently tapering..i choose the sub route because quite simply, i wanted the" softer easier way"..i do not have the long history of abuse that you had, in fact i still have no idea what led me to this lifestyle. i never abused drugs, but somehow started to pop pills two years ago..i dont know if sub was/is the right choice, but i made it and realize that i need to get off now..just wanted to thank you for all the info, especially regarding PAWS...i actually feel i have alot of those symptons...i do feel foggy, ADDish..emotionally, i'm all over the place at times...i know you choose not to medicate those symptons away, but what is your opinion on anti- depressants? im considering taking them as i get ready to come off the sub...also i live on Long Island!

[angler204]

Arlene, have you been clean since 12-2002? WOW! That's amazing to me. I went cold turkey 2 weeks ago from today after taking at least 10-18 10mg vikes or tabs or whatever I could get my hands on. I feel ok actually. Just wondering if the cravings go away entirely or is it just manageable?
I feel great and am amazed every time when I see someone like you who have been clean for so long. It truly gives me hope. I feel like I'm doing pretty good...even with the cravings. I just tell myself "all it takes is one pill and I'll be back to the way I was"
I am very tough on myself so it makes it easier...just curious what happens later down the road.

inspired...
angler (adam)

quote:Originally posted by arlenewla

While I understand what you're saying nymommy, I think there's a difference in support and sugar coating the effects of BMT/MMT.

Yes...by all means...support and encouragement. However, that doesn't mean living in a fantasy that there won't be heavy dues to be paid from either of these drugs.

I am a huge advocate of attending NA/AA meetings. The only requirement for membership is a desire to get clean/sober.

That being said, members are asked not to share if they have had a drink or drug in the past 24 hours. This is inclusive of Methadone. Bup, to my knowledge, is not specifically addressed in Pamphlet 29 given that it was written before the introduction of Sub into the addict community. Why are they asked not to share if alcohol, Methadone or any other drug has been ingested within 24 hours? Because they can't share in a cogent, clear-headed manner, sober manner.

In sobriety, there is difference of clarity. Senses are acute, not dulled. Emotions are not dulled. The word of the day is "feelings"...something that is often Lost in Translation on any and all drugs...other than the maudlin and victim-stance type of feelings.

So yes and again yes....12 Step Programs, working the Steps, sponsor, meetings, being of service. IMHO, they are critical to the needed changes in re-learning behavior, re-learning the art of responding in lieu of reacting, refining character traits that have gotten out of whack, an attitude of gratitude.

Let's talk Methadone for a minute...a topic with which I am intimately familiar.

I was on MMT for 15 years...@250mg. It took me 5+1/2 months locked down in an inpatient detox to get off of it. Fact. It took another 8 months until I slept 2 hours a night. Fact. No free lunch...no easier softer way.

I will state unequivocally that Methadone changes ones perception of life. One becomes numb, lethargic, suffers from constipation, lack of sex drive, sweats, enormous weight gains, edema. And whie this may not happen immediately, the longer one is on, the negatives will begin to outweigh the original positives.

The most insidious part of Methadone is that tolerance and craving increases. Doses are obsencely and routinely high. Lives are infringed upon my Clinic administrators. Pee on demand. Line up on demand. Do call backs on demand. They don't call it liquid handcuffs for nothing.

If one is on Methadone for pain management, the longer on the drug, the less efficacious the Methadone is for that pain. Actually, it begins to create a rebound pain syndrome. The more Methadone, the greater the pain and then the more Methadone you need to quell the pain. Vicious cycle.

Benzo's & Methadone are a fatal combination. There's nothing mysterious here...nor new. The fatality issues aside, ever see Methadone patients at Clinics who are taking benzo's as well? They're frigging loaded! Sucking their socks, as is said.

This being said, please know that if you intend to use BMT/MMT as short-term bridges to abstinence...which is what they were designed for...then go for it. But please also know that even short-term has it's dues. The longer the term on either, the bigger the balloon payment.

<center>"The therapuetic value of one addict helping another is without parallel."</center>

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[arlenewla]

As Chrish just said, WOW! You guys ask terrific questions!

So, being the addict I am, I'm going to take the easier, softer way out and try to answer Lisa's first. LOL.

The question regarding when PAWS kicks in and how one separates it from acute WD. Interesting.

Remember, acute WD as well as PAWS is very subjective. Each of us experiences these symptoms differently. And I would suspect that we all believe we have the most acute symptoms of each phase. No doubt...one of the hallmarks of addiction is feeling *terminally unique*. Anyone remember another addict saying, "I am the *worst* junkie in the world? I'm sicker than you. My bottom was lower."

What I think this really translates to is "I'm hopeless, you're not. Ergo, I can't do this."

Frankly, I don't know if there's defined, scientific line. I would suspect that after you've stopped puking, having the runs and spiked BP may be one way to tell. And I think it's probably defined by what you're coming off of as well.

I can speak personally to Methadone. It's got the longest half life out there. I defined my PAWS as the period of about 3 weeks after I took my last dose of Methadone. Why this personal definition? Not a clue!

And I would suspect that Lisa's thought on these two phases overlapping is the operative one.

Here's my own self-definition of what I experienced: sleep deprivation, shaking, sweats/goose bumps, depression, thighs and calve muscles that ached (no longer kicking in the air), depression, inability to interact with others, anger, ad nauseum.

Yes...sleep deprivation and depression are the hardest in the PAWS phase and particularly notable & responsible for relapse. There is a sense that *it* will outlast your ability to outlast *it*.

I would say that this wasn't true for me. I just kept repeating this simple, but very true, mantra: THIS TOO SHALL PASS! No...I'm not trivializing in the least the effects of PAWS...no way...no how. But what I am saying is that HOLDING ON became of paramount importance to me.

When in this particular struggle, someone with a lot of clean time told me that "no one ever died of lack of sleep." So, although I wanted to strangle that person at the time, I took the advice to heart. A wee bit punchy...but I suspended my disbelief. Took a leap of faith that what she was saying would be true for me too.

The depression...or what I perceived as depression...hit. And I was told that addiction is also a Disease of Perception. Meaning that my natural tendency is to magnify everything...everything becomes the worst case senario. So I worked at switching up what I called depression into *feeling blue*. Putting things in perspective.

I made a choice to take no benzo's for sleep. I took Valerian Root to help sleep. I still take Valerian Root...frankly, my sleep patterns are f*cked. I only get about 5+1/2 hours per night and it's 4 years later. Is this based on old tapes that play in my head that it's time to *dose* and go to the Clinic at 4:30AM or is based on the fact that I'm almost 60? Don't know...and it no longer matters. It is what it is. But I know I no longer wake up dope-sick, so it doesn't get much better than that, huh?

Regarding AD's for perceived depression...again my personal choice was no. I figured I had been taking *something* for 22 years. Didn't have a clue as to what I felt. Also understood that if I were going to allow my brain to go to it's *normal* state...whatever that might be, I would have to live with depression of PAWS for a bit (I was told 6 months clean would be a fair time to ascertain this state) in order for there to be a true *baseline*. Given that I had shut down my natural endorphin level for 22 years, I had to give myself time for them to resurface...naturally...sans AD's.

See, I believe that we become habituated to the act of taking *something* to alleviate whatever we're feeling. There's a great line from Drugstore Cowboy that speaks to this: "Drugs are just things people use to relieve the pressures of everyday life, like tying their shoelaces." Oh my, oh my. Said it for me!

Matty ~

Regarding a decision to go on Sub for your present Hydro dose, my personal answer would be no.

For me, it's like shooting a cannon at ant.

That does not mean, whatsoever, that you're not an addict and that your addiction isn't playing significant havoc...creating unmanagability in your life. I get it. And no, addiction isn't a comparative issue when it comes to unmanagability and wreckage. Whatever and how much of *whatever* brings you down...brings you down. Fact.

However, choosing Sub for 4+ months on a relatively light opioid such as Hydro at a relatively small dose is not, IMHO, a smart move.

And while self-tapers are usually difficult, here's what I would suggest. Have a trusted, non-addict friend (spouse) or a recovering addict with significant clean time hold and dispense your meds. Reduction rate could be at about 20%. As you get lower, you can hold for a few days at each drop...then continue. There should be a written taper schedule. Very specific. The person in charge of doling out your meds will have to hang tough as *we* have a tendency to whine & b*tch...to be manipulative. Naahh...not us. LOL![:0]

Is this a possibility for you?

Sparky ~

Okay, so as I understand it, you've been back on Sub for 2 weeks at this juncture. Is that correct? What dosage are you on now and what did they induct you at?

Yes, Sparky...it is all about the mindset once you get off. For me it is very much about support...AA/NA...whichever. *We* are different. Like it or not, our perceptions of the world tend to be f*cking weird. A wee bit self-centered and self-absorbed. It's the "all about me" syndrome, huh?

The changeup, the paradigm switch, I have personally discovered in 12 Step Programs is in working the Steps. Yes meetings...yes sponsor. But, for me, the key in the door was in the Steps. To the point where I identify at meetings as a "grateful, recovering addict." Am I grateful for the disease? Well no and yes.

I'm not particularly grateful that I put my family through h*ll. I'm not particularly grateful that I my husband died of the disease of alcoholism nor that I lost every financial possesion I had to the IRS.

However, I am grateful that had it not been for this disease, I would never have found the Steps. I believe that this was the most life changing force I could have encountered. I am grateful that I now understand that I'm not Mistress of the Universe. Takes a big burden off of these shoulders! Grateful that I now have gratitude for the life I so cherish.

You said something interesting about "staying away from drugs." See, I believe in addition to having the Disease of Addiction, the Disease of Perception, I have another disease. It's called an I.S.M. An acronym for Instant Short-term Memory. I can forget...very quickly...were I came from.

Drugs are always there...they're everywhere. Booze is always there...everywhere.

So, for me, the retention of emotional sobriety means that I work to stay out of being reactive...that I work to respond in lieu of reacting. "G-D grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change those I can, and the [u]wisdom</u> to know the difference."

Since it's a given that I am a freaking addict...something I can't change...I keep this disease in a daily state of remission. Relapse is always an option...an option I choose not to exercise just for today...and have made this committment for life. I don't pickup even if my a*ss is falling off. Period.

Sooo, as regards coming off of the Sub...sooner is better than later. Less is more, huh?

PHEW...I just noticed I wrote the opening to History of the World, Part I.

Hope this wasn't a tedious read. Warmly, Ar

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[angler204]

14 days and counting...

If I can do this anyone can!!!

Stay strong everyone!

[abey042000]

Thank You Arlenewla for joining this forum. You are truly bringing insight, FACTS, and inspiration to the people here. I know that I have not come off the right way to some ppl here. Simply, I was just trying to bring some insight about m'done and I now know, not in the proper manner. Continue to keep posting as I believe that you will help ALOT of ppl here in this forum. Its awhole new way of looking at things, huh?

To anyone I offended:

I apologize for coming off the way that I did. Obviously, I'm not good with my writings (choice of words). But I wanted this forum or ppl that were lurking to beware of these meds.(m'done/bupe) Wont u accept my apology?

Mort~

I hope u continue to read/post here. I think Arl has some very good insight for u, but thats my opinion. I truly wish u the best! I really do hun.

Matty~
Email me...abey042000@yahoo.com I have something I want to share with you.

Sincerely,
Abey

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by abey042000

Thank You Arlenewla for joining this forum. You are truly bringing insight, FACTS, and inspiration to the people here. I know that I have not come off the right way to some ppl here. Simply, I was just trying to bring some insight about m'done and I now know, not in the proper manner. Continue to keep posting as I believe that you will help ALOT of ppl here in this forum. Its awhole new way of looking at things, huh?

To anyone I offended:

I apologize for coming off the way that I did. Obviously, I'm not good with my writings (choice of words). But I wanted this forum or ppl that were lurking to beware of these meds.(m'done/bupe) Wont u accept my apology?

Abey dear ~

I want to thank you for a warm welcome.

And I think that when we're early recovery...something I count myself as being...that sometimes we have a tendency, in our zeal and passion to "spread the word", to come off blunt.

I know I frequently do this. Frankly, I can be straight up, East coast, in your face. Well, not your face, but just my style of writing.

I guess, for me, what I've learned in sobriety is that being supportive is different from co-signing bull-sh*t. And when I see it...'cause my bull-sh*t detector is finely honed given that I was a master at it myself...I zero in on stuff that literally jumps off the page at me.

I am not talking about the wonderful posters here who have opened their arms, widely, to me.

I know, for me, that it required rigorous honesty to get sober...and requires ongoing committment to being in truth to stay sober.

You said something interesting. You said, "New way of looking at things."

Absolutely, positively. There is a line in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous that speaks to this very issue.

It says (& I paraphrase) that "we have been given a new pair of glasses." Now, I don't always have my new pair of glasses on straight. Sometimes they get tilted on my nose. Sometimes they get a little cloudy. But, by enlarge, they are a whole lot clearer than the glasses of old I wore...the one's with the rose colored lenses.

See...it's about progress...not perfection. It's about the never ending pursuit of the journey...not thinking I've crossed the finish line nor finished the journey.

In effect, it's remaining teachable. Lest I think I ever have this *thing* knocked, I'm f*cked.

So, I would suspect that anyone who might have been somewhat offended, will let it go. Holding onto resentments is like drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die.

And you, Abey, have just done a 10th Step. Continuing to take personal inventory, and when wrong, promptly admitted it. Bravo...bravo, babe! Love, Ar

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[angler204]

to all...

here's the junky coming out in me.
Is there anything that anyone is taking for increased energy levels? I feel tired and run down which makes the cravings tough...

any suggestions? Would working out help?

[balance]

hey guys thanks for all your useful information and inspiration to quit! being physically dependent on painkillers has been the worst thing that has happened to me but we can all quit these horrible pills once and for all!

can someone explain these stages of WD's stages in a SIMPLIFIED way,such as acute wd's and PAWS or whatever, and how long does the diarreah last for? my stomach hasnt been able to hold ANYTHING for the last 5 days and i feel like i will lose a lot of weight.. is losing weight common when WD?

thanks everyone

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by angler204

Arlene, have you been clean since 12-2002? WOW! That's amazing to me. I went cold turkey 2 weeks ago from today after taking at least 10-18 10mg vikes or tabs or whatever I could get my hands on. I feel ok actually. Just wondering if the cravings go away entirely or is it just manageable? I feel great and am amazed every time when I see someone like you who have been clean for so long. It truly gives me hope. I feel like I'm doing pretty good...even with the cravings. I just tell myself "all it takes is one pill and I'll be back to the way I was"I am very tough on myself so it makes it easier...just curious what happens later down the road.

inspired...
angler (adam)

Ooh, Adam ~

I love inspiring people. It's such a win-win! Thank you so much.

Congratulations on 2 weeks CLEAN

YES...the cravings will dissipate. They will eventually subside. And the only way you can get them going in the direction of disappearing is by NOT picking up that one pill.

I personally believe that one is too many and a thousand never enough! Kind'a like Lay's potato chips (or was it Pringles?)..."bet you can't eat just one", huh?

That *one pill* will reawaken the physical allergy...for more. Then, it's on...again.

Look, darlin'...it's a hell of a lot easier to stay sober than to get sober.

Play out the end of the tape...to it's bitter end...before you pickup.

Next...we'll talk about the obsession to use...which is different from craving.

In the words of my *beloved* Governor...I'll be back. Warmly, Ar

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[arlenewla]

quote:Originally posted by angler204

to all...

here's the junky coming out in me.
Is there anything that anyone is taking for increased energy levels? I feel tired and run down which makes the cravings tough...

any suggestions? Would working out help?

Absolutely...exercise is the best bet to get the natural endorphins pumping!

A word of caution...in the beginning...take it slowly. Don't tire yourself out to the extent where you're drained. Watch for muscle pulls. Stretch before hand. Try taking a hot shower before...and after.

You don't want to find yourself in a position where you've pulled something...then in pain...and then...well, you know the rest of the scenario.

Arlene F.
Exodus from MMT; 12/25/02
There is no easier, softer way; if nothing changes, nothing changes

[tamara02]

Hi !! Guys , Hope all is well,Sorry I haven't posted much, But I have been reading posts..Hi,Mort.,Lisa miss you guysBeen so buzy with kids and X-mas....went to my 2nd appt.all went well ,doc rx'ed me some diet pills to loose some weight and give me some Energy,I told her if she didn't give me something my tree ,lights and x-mas deco would not get done,so she was nice enough to write me a 2 week supply and I am getting things doneYeah!!promise to chat w/ ya'll soon,love ya , Tamm M. Get some Immodium asap for the diahrea works really quik..also drink lots of water , walk,take lots of hot baths or showers, get some good vitamins,a zanax here and there or a muscle relaxer wont hurt,but just for a couple weeks til you feel better,check mvpt Daves posts they are very helpful,also. good luck,take care..

[tamara02]

M. mean't for Balance,sorry...[)]

[angler204]

Tamara- Do diet pills work for energy? Are they addictive? I am dragging ass today on 14 day's clean. I have found that I must get a good night sleep or the idea of needing pills is all I can think about. Is there anything that I could use to increase energy levels ASAP to get my mind off of my demons? Over the counter?

quote:Originally posted by tamara02

Hi !! Guys , Hope all is well,Sorry I haven't posted much, But I have been reading posts..Hi,Mort.,Lisa miss you guysBeen so buzy with kids and X-mas....went to my 2nd appt.all went well ,doc rx'ed me some diet pills to loose some weight and give me some Energy,I told her if she didn't give me something my tree ,lights and x-mas deco would not get done,so she was nice enough to write me a 2 week supply and I am getting things doneYeah!!promise to chat w/ ya'll soon,love ya , Tamm M. Get some Immodium asap for the diahrea works really quik..also drink lots of water , walk,take lots of hot baths or showers, get some good vitamins,a zanax here and there or a muscle relaxer wont hurt,but just for a couple weeks til you feel better,check mvpt Daves posts they are very helpful,also. good luck,take care..

[LISA GIRL]

Tammy.. Hey girl.. Glad you are feeling better! What kind of diet pills did the doctor give you? Was it your sub doctor that prescribed them? The only ones (besides over the counter) that I ever took were the Phen-fen combination. Those worked superbly but of course, were pulled off the market when they were linked to PPH.. Now get those lights up! lol

Angler.. Good for you. You are doing great! Are you not sleeping at night or just tired as a result of w/d? In my humble opinion, if you are not sleeping, I would try to work on that rather than taking diet pills for energy....

Abbey.. As a Christian, I am an easy forgive. So as far as I am concerned it's a clean slate. I was only trying to protect a friend from what I saw as an attack. I do hope you and Mort work everything out as it appears that you were once good friends!

Arlene. I believe you are exactly what this forum needed. We have simplified addiction in recent pages and seem to forget what a horrendous issue we all have on our hands. Loved so much of what you have to say.. especially how it is easier to stay sober than to get sober...You have a lot to offer us here. Really looking forward to your "talk" on obsession of using and the difference from craving. Right now I am suffering from both I believe. May I ask if after your amount of clean time you still have "cravings?" Sometimes it seems so hard to imagine going the rest of my life without my little yellow friends. I guess that is why NA teaches (I don't go but know a little of teachings and the steps) one day at a time. Again thank you for taking the time to type all you have. I'm glad you get something out of it too..

Morticia... where are you today girl? Hope you are ok...We miss your cheery posts!

[nymommy]

glad to move on as well...confrontation is exhausting!! arlene your input here is well respected...started my first day w/o sub...i'm hopeful, but it isnt easy..doable, not easy though

[LISA GIRL]

quote:Originally posted by nymommy

glad to move on as well...confrontation is exhausting!! arlene your input here is well respected...started my first day w/o sub...i'm hopeful, but it isnt easy..doable, not easy though

Rock on MNF...So proud of you for all you have accomplished!

[sparky]

Hello all....and Arlene....thankyou for your words....hopefully I can remember long enough the great insight you responded with as I completely understand this I.S.M. you spoke of...1st time around sub use I was all about the support...surrounded myself with meetings ..NA etc....could at the that point never understand how relapsing could ever enter ones mind...until I head a big break in my support system...I went on a long vacation and was left with my own devises...thats when the "instant short term memory" kicked in...just one pill cranked up that ol memory bank of long term usage...I was back at it or at least surely on my way.......so, ok, whats done is done and now on to 2nd sub usage.....arlene you inquired how much at this 2 week point am I taking and what did I start with...I started with about 8 mgs split throughout the day....I found that to be too much as I was always sleepy....so I have reduced to about 2mg ...3 times a day...sometimes skipping the evening dose...at this point I am probably good to reduce to about 4 mg a day...my thoght process is I will spread out my weaning over the holiday and get very serious into weaning after that.............................................. ........I do totally relate to in my world being Mistress of the Universe....I am so caught up in my own little histories....NA does offer a different mindset in working the steps....I have had a taste of that gratitude and service to others that helps get the Universe off one self...thanks...and keep posting...your wisdom is appreciated