Long-term Suboxone user & I want off!

[littletortoise]

Hi everyone here. I've been reading quite a lot about Sub on this site and am pretty blown away by the incredible support. There are some wonderful folks on here! (Robert 325, you are already my hero).

I've been on Sub since 2005. I'm learned that my story is pretty different than most others, as I wasn't an opiate addict. I was in a bad accident and was in some pretty awful pain. I am a recovering alcoholic and Suboxone was recommended to me as an alternative to narcotics that I could become really addicted to. I was taking Vicodin, but I'd only been on it for three weeks and not everyday. Ironically, the whole point of Suboxone was to NOT get addicted to something. So, I was started at only 2 mg and had to work up my dose over time to get pain relief. This took a while, but eventually I was at 32 mg. After 6 months, I wanted to see if perhaps my pain was manageable, so I told my doctor I wanted to wean off and did...for a while. I went blazing down like nobody's business and then I hit a WALL. I'd never been dope sick and it was such a shock. My doc was certainly in no hurry for me to wean off, so I just remained on it at a lower dose. I was told to also use the Sub for my flare ups of pain, which I did.

After a couple years, I found out I was pregnant and that was scary. I had to get as low as I could on Sub as fast as I could without stressing my body too badly (epilepsy). I got to 3 mg and was there for most of my pregnancy and my baby was born healthy. Thank God!! However, after my c-section and tubal (during which they accidentally left my tube and removed something else), I was in w/d and miserable, even though they were giving me tons and tons of pain meds. I was going crazy. I just wanted my Sub. I decided to leave the hospital and go right back on Sub instead of take the pain meds. As my doctor suggested, I used the Sub to help w/ the pain of botched surgery and ended up back at about 8 mg. At that point, I'd been through such horrible withdrawal that I had no intention of ever getting off Suboxone. In fact, on the day of my c-section, I was so sick from not taking Sub for a week that I endured contractions and dialated to 7 cm and didn't even complain because I felt only the w/d.

The scariest part of w/d to me is the mental part. I tried one other time to come off Sub and I lost my mind. I almost lost my family. I was pushing too fast and not listening to my body. It scared me so badly that I officially gave up.

The truth is that I DO want off this. I am taking 7 mg a day. I react violently to going down. However, I have done a lot of mental work on myself and I have become religious about my Suboxone. I have a new doctor and I record my dose everyday, including when I take it. I never take it for pain anymore. EVER!! I do not even believe it even works for pain, anyway. I know I may have a 2-year tapering ahead of me, but I have to do it. I need support. I need people who know what this feels like. I need to know how slowly I should expect to go down. I'd rather be slow and steady and win this race than be hasty and have my world fall apart again.

[yezdegerd]

That sounds awful, sorry to hear that. Robert is definitely the sub man around here, his plan usually requires 25% per 4 days or something like that but I'm sure he will walk you through what works for you. I went from 16mg to 4mg in 8 days and noticed nothing, then again I'm an opiate addict thats used to WD. Just don't be in a rush, make a plan and see it through. When you need that pain relief though it's going to be tough. Suboxone is actually an extremely strong painkiller, which is why you were so miserable even on the meds they had you on. What's your plan after kicking the subs for pain management?

[Robert_325]

Hi everyone here. I've been reading quite a lot about Sub on this site and am pretty blown away by the incredible support. There are some wonderful folks on here! (Robert 325, you are already my hero).

I've been on Sub since 2005. I'm learned that my story is pretty different than most others, as I wasn't an opiate addict. I was in a bad accident and was in some pretty awful pain. I am a recovering alcoholic and Suboxone was recommended to me as an alternative to narcotics that I could become really addicted to. I was taking Vicodin, but I'd only been on it for three weeks and not everyday. Ironically, the whole point of Suboxone was to NOT get addicted to something. So, I was started at only 2 mg and had to work up my dose over time to get pain relief. This took a while, but eventually I was at 32 mg. After 6 months, I wanted to see if perhaps my pain was manageable, so I told my doctor I wanted to wean off and did...for a while. I went blazing down like nobody's business and then I hit a WALL. I'd never been dope sick and it was such a shock. My doc was certainly in no hurry for me to wean off, so I just remained on it at a lower dose. I was told to also use the Sub for my flare ups of pain, which I did.

After a couple years, I found out I was pregnant and that was scary. I had to get as low as I could on Sub as fast as I could without stressing my body too badly (epilepsy). I got to 3 mg and was there for most of my pregnancy and my baby was born healthy. Thank God!! However, after my c-section and tubal (during which they accidentally left my tube and removed something else), I was in w/d and miserable, even though they were giving me tons and tons of pain meds. I was going crazy. I just wanted my Sub. I decided to leave the hospital and go right back on Sub instead of take the pain meds. As my doctor suggested, I used the Sub to help w/ the pain of botched surgery and ended up back at about 8 mg. At that point, I'd been through such horrible withdrawal that I had no intention of ever getting off Suboxone. In fact, on the day of my c-section, I was so sick from not taking Sub for a week that I endured contractions and dialated to 7 cm and didn't even complain because I felt only the w/d.

The scariest part of w/d to me is the mental part. I tried one other time to come off Sub and I lost my mind. I almost lost my family. I was pushing too fast and not listening to my body. It scared me so badly that I officially gave up.

The truth is that I DO want off this. I am taking 7 mg a day. I react violently to going down. However, I have done a lot of mental work on myself and I have become religious about my Suboxone. I have a new doctor and I record my dose everyday, including when I take it. I never take it for pain anymore. EVER!! I do not even believe it even works for pain, anyway. I know I may have a 2-year tapering ahead of me, but I have to do it. I need support. I need people who know what this feels like. I need to know how slowly I should expect to go down. I'd rather be slow and steady and win this race than be hasty and have my world fall apart again.

There is NO WAY it will take you two years to taper off subs if you do it prooerly. Read the following link closely. I came up with this process for myself a long time ago and have used it here successfully for years.

If you will follow what I ask you to do I can have you off subs in 60-90 days max. Read the link and then let me know how I can help you. Over half the people on this forum have gotten clean from subs using this process. God bless.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

[littletortoise]

Thank you guys for getting back to me.

Robert_325, I actually have read that link, but I clicked it and re-read it just to be sure. I sometimes feel like I'm a freak or something because there are some people who seem to charge through Sub withdrawal and don't feel well but are generall okay, meaning they don't completely fall apart.

I, on the other had, fall apart! Do you recommend the same schedule even for people who have been on Sub for as long as I have? I've gone down on Sub at a fairly slow rate compared to a lot of the people whose threads I've read and you've been helping...and I am definitely way sicker. It's not like I cannot sleep well, I just won't sleep at all. I get completely incapacitated. I cannot drive, cannot parent, cannot do anything really. That is why I am so afraid of w/d. The last time I went through it, I decided it was a good idea to break up my family.

I'm curious if you think that there is a downside to going slowly. My (most informed) Sub doc has said it takes a month to normalize after tapering. I guess this could be true. I'm just wondering if maybe I could do smaller but more frequent drops. 25% sound like a lot! At the same time, you have a pretty incredible success rate. I've been planning on sticking more around the 10% range. Do you think this is too small?

I sometimes feel like I'm trying to find my way in the dark with this Sub tapering thing and I worry that I may be alone in how violently my body reacts...and more impotantly, how violently my mind reacts. I've been planning on going from 7 mg to 6.5 and then to 6 and to 5.5, etc. My main goal, theoretically, is to try to keep my life on track while I go down. At the same time, I certainly do not know the best way and have no way of knowing.

Of course, I'll talk to my doctor about any advice I get. At the same time, in the past, many times it has been me educating the Sub doctors about the medication they are prescribing. There is certainly a special place in heaven for those who make it out of a maze and then spend their time guiding others out....

[Robert_325]

If you go too slowly you'll end up addicted to the subs. I personally think a 10% reduction is playing at tapering. There are no problems with a 25% reduction every four days or so like the link says. You're dr will disagree likely as it would keep him from having you as a patient and money train. The link I directed is how I did it years ago, then I have shared that process here for years with lots of success. This process has worked for people with many years on subs. It's your call. God bless.

[littletortoise]

Robert_325, thank you so much for getting back so quickly.

As far as being addicted to the Sub, I''ve been on it sine 2005. Five full years, so I'm addicted and that's a fact. Do you think it's a bad idea for me to go down slowly, even if I've been on it that long? I'm asking because I really respect your opinion. I can see how well your program is working for people and I wish I'd found you 4.5 years ago! You are saving many people from ending up like me...on Sub for so very, very long.

Because the amounts get so nuts, I realistically can't go down 10% the whole time. I wrote out a reasonable taper schedule that uses numbers I can actually accurately cut. The % of the drops are more around 12-15%. I experimented with a film and found I can cut it into 16 pieces with an exacto knife. So, when I get to the end of my taper, I will be down to 125 micrograms of Bup, which shouldn't kill me to jump off of.

I guess I just wonder if people like me who have been on Sub so darn long can expect to go off as fast as some of the people you are helping. After I cut my dose, I don't even get the full w/d in four days. I just wonder how my body can adjust to being without Sub completely if I never let it normalize on lesser and lesser amounts. Personally, I'd love to be off as quickly as you are talking about. I just don't want to lose my mind in the process ;-P

Trust me....I know about the doctors and how they like to keep their patients. I know there are a lot of doctors in this economy ensuring their clientele by handing out Sub with no time limit. It's so wrong. I appreciate your feedback and can tell you that reading about the people who have made it off Sub under your guidance has really helped me get back in the mindset that I can do it. I had thrown in the towel.

[Robert_325]

I think that it's important you do the day-skipping process at the end of the taper. That is what makes the difference with the success we have I guarantee. That is only three doses over two weeks but it makes a difference.

And for what it's worth I've done this with people who've used subs since since it became legal in the United States. That was 2003. Other countries have used it for much longer times. It's amazing how many use opiates all over the world. This forum has had people get clean here from everywhere. God bless.

[littletortoise]

Robert_325, thanks for the advice about skipping days at the end. That makes a lot of sense, considering the long half-life.

I'm just relieved to hear that people ARE getting off after being on Sub a long time. That is music to my ears. On the other hand, I don't like this little worry I have that I am somehow the exception to the rule. For instance, I recall going from 4 mg to 3 mg at one point and it freaked me out. That would be 25%, so it shouldn't have happened. I am talking about the degree of withdrawals. The 10% idea comes from the fact that I have experienced that reaction and also from a doc who is online and suggests his patients go down by that much.

Do you ever have people who struggle a lot going down by the 25%?

Also, I'm curious about the 4 days thing. From what I understand, it takes at least a week to normalize on a decreased dose, typically longer. So, do people just go down anyway even though they are still in w/d? Do they just wait until the bad part is gone? Sorry to ask all these questions. I'm on a mission to get as informed as I can.

[Robert_325]

I see a few people that need a day or two more than the regular four days but everyone seems to tolerate 25% reductions just fine. I'm serious about that and I think you are freaking out with a pre-conceived notion about the 10% That is such a low amount, that is an amount used for methadone tapers not subs.

[littletortoise]

Okay, I think it's making a bit more sense to me now. You have people go at the 25% rate, and then when they into the lower doses, you check in with them each day and decide based on their symptoms whether they should hang tight a while longer or not. Is that right? That doesn't sound so scary. You know, I have had a couple situations where I had down on Sub very fast...too fast...and felt like the doctor was absolutely not listening (cause he wasn't) and it was pure lonely hell. So yes, I definitely am freaking out to an extent.

Even if go down a little less drastically than 25%, it makes me feel much better to know that people on Sub a long time like me are going down that much and surviving it. I really needed to know that. So, thanks....

[newyorkgal]

Just so you know it's possible, I tapered from 16 mg. start t 1/2 mg. now with not much of a problem. I was addicted to methadone for over 30 years before that. My problem is making the final drop. Too scared at this time. But I have a good friend on here (I don't mention names; people should speak for themselves if they wish) who just jumped off after a long addiction and being on for over a year. So, while it's not a walk in the park, it's all doable. Follow the plan to a T or go a bit slower. Whatever works for you but you can be successful as so many on this forum have been.

[littletortoise]

Just so you know it's possible, I tapered from 16 mg. start t 1/2 mg. now with not much of a problem. I was addicted to methadone for over 30 years before that. My problem is making the final drop. Too scared at this time. But I have a good friend on here (I don't mention names; people should speak for themselves if they wish) who just jumped off after a long addiction and being on for over a year. So, while it's not a walk in the park, it's all doable. Follow the plan to a T or go a bit slower. Whatever works for you but you can be successful as so many on this forum have been.

Thanks for that. Hearing success stories makes a world of difference to me. There's so many "this is impossible" posts and blogs online, blah, blah, blah....I started to adopt that mindset myself. It scared me how much going off of Sub not only messed with my body but messed with my mind. Worst of all, I could not even see that it was messing with my mind and that I was being crazy. I went nuts going from 4 to 3 and from 3 to 2. I truthfully do not trust myself and where my thoughts go if I go into that situation again. I've made a promise to myself to not change any single other significant thing in my life while going off Sub. I know I am more sensitive to this than other people. That's pretty embarrassing, but it's true. I never experienced opiate w/d before Sub. I was put on Sub to avoid opiates since I was in recovery for alcoholism. Sometimes I think the w/d scares me because I've never experienced the fact that it does eventually end. The fact that I couldn't go as fast as I should have been able to led me to be ashamed and abort the whole mission. That's so dumb! If I had just gone very slowly but surely, I'd be finished. Part of the problem was my total lack of understanding of how this drug works. I couldn't get why I had gone down 8 mg before w/ zero w/d, and later on I couldn't handle even 1 mg! Now I understand and knowledge is power in this case.

Not sure if you know about the new Suboxone film, but I was just prescribed them and you can cut them very, very small. You can pretty accurately cut them into pieces that will be 125 micrograms each. Since you're at .5, that's 500 micrograms...still I pretty significant dose. If you do want to ever get off, maybe the films would allow you to reduce slowly. I plan on reducing to 125 micrograms before jumping off. Thanks for your feedback!

[newyorkgal]

Thanks for the info aboutt the film. I am defnitely going to ask for it next doctor's appt. The problem is I only go to the doc aboutt once every 4-6 months because I ttake so much less than she knows and she could care less how often I come, as long as I come with $100 lol.

As I said before, there are many success stories on here. Some have followed the plan totally and gotten off in about 2 months. Others have taken it slower and still made it. Some stay on. I am always in a quandry, sometimes thinking I want off NOW, other times thinking it's okay to stay on indefinitely. My history is relatively unique. past 2 years on sub, 33 years before than on methadone and 10 years before than on IV heroin. Add to that the fact that I'm 61 years old and in ill health, and I wonder if, for me, it's even worth it to go through what I will inevitably go through. But tthat is ME, not YOU... It's very much about mindset. If you want off badly enough - if you do all the things you should - you will be successful. I've seen it time and time again. I tell you my story just so you'll know there are all kinds and we are all different and there is no wrong way (in my opinion). You just have to decide what you want and what you're willing to go through to get there. I'm still in limbo but am proud of myself for getting down to the dose I'm now on. You can do whatever you set your mind to even if it's not the e asiest thing in the world..

[littletortoise]

I think you are doing great, lol! I really get what you said about going off Sub right now or just staying on it indefinitely. I have wanted to be off now, now, now! So, I'd go too fast and freak myself out and go back the other way. I had rsigned myself to staying on this forever. For some reason, I couldn't handle to slowness of a taper...not enough instant gratification for me.

Even if you are on .5, you are getting somewhere IMO. That's a vey low dose! You are totally stable on it. That is fantatic. I think there's nothing wrong with deciding to stick at .5. I'm actually in my early 30s and I do want to get off...I want to be able to not worry about going to the doc and that sort of thing. If you decide you do want to get off, the films might be your ticket. You really can cut them as small as you want and you can take as long as you need at each level. One of my favorite Sub docs (who is online) recommends getting below 200 micrograms before stopping Sub. That's why my goal final dose is 1/16 of a 2 mg film. That's only 125 micrograms. .5 is 500 micrograms.

Best of luck! I appreciate your thumbs up. :-)

[newyorkgal]

And I appreciate YOUR thumbs up LOL.... You are too young to decide to stay on anything forever. As I said, each of us is so different. You are different from me. Robert is correct that in no way should it take you 2 years to get off sub. When you're ready; when you're determined, you can follow the taper schedule and it will work. Will it be a walk in tthe park? Nope. But if you really wantt off, it's possible and doable.

[littletortoise]

I agree that I was overreacting when I said it would take me 2 yrs. to wean off this stuff. Again, I can't tell you how much your thumbs up and confidence in me boost me up. I appreciate those things!!

The thing is that I believe I am ready to come off this stuff. I just don't think I should do it as quickly as many others do. There was a time when I did think that way and I wish that this board had been there back then because it was a lonely and confusing time. I wish I'd had Robert_325 to tell me to calm down and not make insane changes to my life while in w/d.

I've kinda worn out everyone's (family/friends) patience for Sub w/d...not just my own patience. I'd like it to impact my family as little as possible, KWIM? I've actually come down 2 mg in the past 2 weeks. I'm trying to do it in a way where I'm able to at least fake that I feel fine. Even going down that small amount gives me some degree of symptoms. They are not bad by any means! However, I sure am sensitive to this stuff, and I actually have a decent pain tolerance. I hate feeling like a freak/wimp in that regard, lol! I'm drinking the water...going for the walks. It's actually harder for *me* to go down slowly. I'd like the quicker fix. I just don't want to wig out and throw my hands up like I've done before and to be honest, I don't trust myself because no matter who I am right now and how badly I want something, I morph into someone else very irrational and selfish and impatient and impulsive when I go into bad w/d. At some point I do not even see that I am being crazy. That is soooo scary!! I don't trust what I will do. My family doesn't even want me to be doing this taper, since they are terrified I'll freak out again. I want to maintain control of my brain. I'm even considering Zoloft short-term. When I jump, I'm going to stay with my very best friend for 2 weeks. It's part of my safety plan. At least I've gotten back the desire to do this.

Thank you!!!!