[LondonToLA]

Good Morning Robert,

I've been dealing with opiate addiction for far too long and it has caused far too much suffering personally, at work, family, friends, financially. Almost all pre-opiate usage good things in my life have turned to shot.

I have been seeing an addiction psychitrist with the licensure to prescribe Suboxone. I've been seeing him since May and that's when he first offered Subutex to get off the opiates and ease the WD's. This DOC is NOT in it for the money - barely gets $100.00 charge for the induction visits. The Subutex is covered by my inurance save for a #30 copay.

I've been of work for 4 months dealing with my opiate deamons and now it's time to lay my swards down or pick them up and fight.

My daily Opiate usage on an off (meaning when, where, and how ever the hell I could get them at whatever cost) ranged from 50 - 120mg per day, preferebaly Norcos. This has been going on for weeks. I've tried to taper and can't do it on my own. The WD pain is unbearable.

The Doctor who prescribed Suboxone prescribed 2.0mg Buprenorphine - .05mg naloxone sublungulaly twice a day per day. The first dosage of 2mg pill in his office went okay. After 1 hour I still didn't feel great & felt some of the WD symptoms ( I had stopped taking any opiates 24 hours prior to my first induction dose of 2.0mg Subox. After the 2.0 dose wasn't working so well, the doctor decided to try another 2.0 sublingual dose. That did the trick. Two 2mg pills taken 1 hour apart sublingually seemed to work well.

When I went home that night, I took a 2mg 0.5mg dose and went to bed as I didn't want any of that slight suphoric feeling that I got with the second in-office dose.

The doctor recommends that I maintain Subox for 3 months until I get some good "clean time" in me. Yes, I know that Suboxone is an opiate - a drug for a drug - but in this very short time, it has changed my outlook on life and made me believe that maybe, just maybe, I can actually keep my job while not doing anything illegal and hurting myself and the ones I love.

I would love to hear any input or suggestions from you Robert. I tried proabaly 5 times to quit cold turkey or weaning and things only get worse.

Thank you for taking the time whenever you get a moment. I appreciate it.

MC

[Robert_325]

I'm happy you're trying to make positive changes. But did you tell the dr about all the ambien you've been taking for months? That is my concern. Talk to me about how your ambien use has progressed. God bless.

[melinda7.5]

Hi London
I don't remember if I told you I had surgery and I had to take pain pills for a couple months, so I did the subs to help me with the w/d and I'm wrapping it up this weekend...they really help...
Talk to you soon, Melinda

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I'm happy you're trying to make positive changes. But did you tell the dr about all the ambien you've been taking for months? That is my concern. Talk to me about how your ambien use has progressed. God bless.

Yes, Robert, I let the doctor have all the information he would need or want in order to properly treat me. He will refill the Ambien (I weaned myself down to 20mg per night) if I promise to take the prescribed dose each night; not more. I'm not sure I can honor my part of that bargain yet and I've communicated that to him. I still have a good amount of Ambien left and the doctor said it's safe to take with Suboxone, but to be really honest here, since I've taken the suboxone, I don't really have a desire to misuse the Ambien - I don't desire unhealthy sleep as much, if that makes sense.

He said NOT to take any type of benzo while taking Suboxone, and not to expect to sleep for a few nights. I have a follow-up with him on Tuesday. I have been following his plan to the T. All bull******** aside, I will continue to take 20mg Ambien (my prescribed dose) per night until Tuesday.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Hi London
I don't remember if I told you I had surgery and I had to take pain pills for a couple months, so I did the subs to help me with the w/d and I'm wrapping it up this weekend...they really help...
Talk to you soon, Melinda

I'm sorry you had to have surgery, especially being an addict, but it's nice to know that the subs helped you with the WD.

I'm only on Day 2 and am feeling more "like myself" than I have in quite a while.

Hope you're feeling better.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by LondonToLA

Yes, Robert, I let the doctor have all the information he would need or want in order to properly treat me. He will refill the Ambien (I weaned myself down to 20mg per night) if I promise to take the prescribed dose each night; not more. I'm not sure I can honor my part of that bargain yet and I've communicated that to him. I still have a good amount of Ambien left and the doctor said it's safe to take with Suboxone, but to be really honest here, since I've taken the suboxone, I don't really have a desire to misuse the Ambien - I don't desire unhealthy sleep as much, if that makes sense.

He said NOT to take any type of benzo while taking Suboxone, and not to expect to sleep for a few nights. I have a follow-up with him on Tuesday. I have been following his plan to the T. All bull******** aside, I will continue to take 20mg Ambien (my prescribed dose) per night until Tuesday.

I suggest you taper off the subs at the rate of 25% of the existing dose every four days as long as you aren't having w/d symptoms. Thats the tapering advice that works well here repeatedly.

Let's see how you're feeling after four days and we'll judge the situation at that time. Let us know. God bless.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I suggest you taper off the subs at the rate of 25% of the existing dose every four days as long as you aren't having w/d symptoms. Thats the tapering advice that works well here repeatedly.

Let's see how you're feeling after four days and we'll judge the situation at that time. Let us know. God bless.

Robert, you are seriously a godsend to me. Here I am sitting here literally thinking to myself (paraphrasing) that I'm on 2mg suboxone 3 times a day since Thursday evening, and wondering if I'm doing everything correctly and healtfully and, gosh darn-it, I'm going to give up my pride and ask Robert for his opinion. I log on and BAM, there is your response to my question before I even posed it. *And, yes, my current dosage is 2mg THREE times a day, that wasn't a typo*

I definately need your help, if you are willing to give it, to make sure I'm doing this correctly. I know I can't stay clean on my own and I am also thinking that a 6mg daily dose of Suboxone doesn't seem like a lot (admittedly I really don't know much other than what I read on here).

I know that if I'm dosing at 2mg three times a day, I do not have WD symptoms.

If I am following you correctly, starting Monday, I should dose at 1.5mg three times per day?

Thank you & Melinda for your help as always.

[Robert_325]

That's fine except the dosing three times goes. You only take subs twice each day. NO ONE needs it three times. It's addictive behavior, got to get out of the habit of taking pills all the time. So if you're at 4.5mg tomorrow just take two doses of 2.25mg each. This isn't an exact science. Do two dosese just over 2mg each, make it easy on yourself as you can. And I'm counting on you with that ambien. God bless.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

That's fine except the dosing three times goes. You only take subs twice each day. NO ONE needs it three times. It's addictive behavior, got to get out of the habit of taking pills all the time. So if you're at 4.5mg tomorrow just take two doses of 2.25mg each. This isn't an exact science. Do two dosese just over 2mg each, make it easy on yourself as you can. And I'm counting on you with that ambien. God bless.

Thank you. From what I'm reading, this whole suboxone detox can be done over the course of 10 days? I'm going to do more reading of other suboxone threads on here.

As far as the Ambien goes, I hope I can come off these too. It doesn't seem like such a hard thing to cold-turkey compared to opiates.?

[LondonToLA]

Hi Robert, Melinda, and all.

Just FYI, I had an unexpected Ambien-related WD seizure on Saturday Morning which resulted in a 911 call and a trip to the ER via ambulance. Horrible, but I did it to myself. I have no history of seizures.

Ambien is no joke. I went from 50-60mg per day to zero. Within 24 hours, I was in the ER. This stuff is NO JOKE. X-rays and head CAT scan came back negative.

Been home for 2 days flat on my back as when I seized, I fell awkwardly and sprained my whole back. I don't remember any of it.

I have been taking subox 2mg, 2x per day last dose 5pm yesterday. I've only been on subox less than a week. I'm thinking about just stopping it, but I don't know if I'm thinking clearly.

I've stopped Ambien completely & haven't taken any since Friday night (before my seizure).

Not looking for a pity party. I know this episode has scared the **** out of me, and makes me want to stop all cursory meds right now.

LondonToLA,

I think that you may have misunderstood what you have read on this forum. You can do whatever you want, But I would SERIOUSLY consider staying on the sub for a while.
There is no such thing as a "10 day detox" off sub. I don't know where you read that from, but that is WRONG! 50 to 60 days is doable if you do it right.
You did not mention exactly how long you were taking Norcos, or how long you have been on Suboxone.
Robert, and a few of his disciples can explain to you what to do. But if you jump off of subs right now at 4mg, you will hit the bricks hard! This is a given. Do yourself a big favor, and listen to Robert. If you do the taper like he says, your withdrawals will be significantly less than quitting cold turkey. I have just finished my last sub dose two days ago. I am having some stomach issues, & slight fatigue. Nothing compared to how I felt trying to quit C/T off Lortabs though. Not even close.
Stay on the sub for the time being my friend.

Gary

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by garysremodel1

LondonToLA,

I think that you may have misunderstood what you have read on this forum. You can do whatever you want, But I would SERIOUSLY consider staying on the sub for a while.
There is no such thing as a "10 day detox" off sub. I don't know where you read that from, but that is WRONG! 50 to 60 days is doable if you do it right.
You did not mention exactly how long you were taking Norcos, or how long you have been on Suboxone.
Robert, and a few of his disciples can explain to you what to do. But if you jump off of subs right now at 4mg, you will hit the bricks hard! This is a given. Do yourself a big favor, and listen to Robert. If you do the taper like he says, your withdrawals will be significantly less than quitting cold turkey. I have just finished my last sub dose two days ago. I am having some stomach issues, & slight fatigue. Nothing compared to how I felt trying to quit C/T off Lortabs though. Not even close.
Stay on the sub for the time being my friend.

Gary

Hi Gary,

I have been taking opiates on and off for maybe 5 years. It's gotten really bad in the past year.

I've been taking Suboxone for 1 week, 2mg 2x per day.

I'm going to take 2mg now as I'm 6 hours overdue.

[melinda7.5]

Hi Gary
Robert and I did a 2 week detox on me...I had to have surgery and I was on pain pills for about two months,so I just took them long enough to get me thru w/d...I sure that is what london was talking about...
Your doing great keep it up
Talk to you later, Melinda

Melinda7.5 Sorry about spreading misinformation. I had absolutely no idea that a two week detox was even remotely possible! This must be one of the many tricks that Robert has up his sleeve, no doubt.

LondonToLA. I try my best to not give people the wrong help info. I mucked this one up pretty good, huh? Sorry about that. But I'm pretty certain about the "jumping off at 4mg is noooooooo" part though.
I did a pretty swift taper. So far its 50 days, I believe. I could not stay on sub for 6 months or more like the sub doc wanted. No thanks.
Except for some stomach issues, & general fatigue, I'm landing pretty good. Much better this way than trying to taper off hydro.
Keep it up, me amigo.

Gary

[melinda7.5]

Originally Posted by garysremodel1

Melinda.5 Sorry about spreading misinformation. I had absolutely no idea that a two week detox was even remotely possible! This must be one of the many tricks that Robert has up his sleeve, no doubt.

London. I try my best to not give people the wrong help info. I mucked this one up pretty good, huh? Sorry about that. But I'm pretty certain about the "jumping off at 4mg is No" part though.
I did a pretty swift taper. So far its 50 days, I believe. I could not stay on sub for 6 months or more like the sub doc wanted. No thanks.
Except for some stomach issues, & general fatigue, I'm landing pretty good. Much better this way than trying to taper off hydro.
Keep it up, me amigo.

Gary

Hi Gary
I was kind of an experment...we just wanted to see if it could be done...
It was because I was only on them a short amount of time....you were just trying to help...so no worries
Talk to you later, Melinda

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I'm happy you're trying to make positive changes. But did you tell the dr about all the ambien you've been taking for months? That is my concern. Talk to me about how your ambien use has progressed. God bless.

I'm 4 days completely clean of any Ambien. I'm convinced that my episode this weekend was Ambien WD related. Since my trip to the ER this weekend, I've not wanted to do any Ambien, Opiates, or anything. My use of Ambien was out of control, Robert. 50-60mg Ambien per day average dose (taken during the day, at night, in the afternoon, whenever!), last dose 8/28/08 PM, then absolutely zeroed.

This is why I've wanted to stop the Suboxone all together - because every decision that has been made in my life, including the decision to start suboxone, has been made under the influcence of some drug.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do; but I know that I will make each decision from hereon in totally sober.

Words will never express what TIME can. My new sobriety date is 8/29/09.

I've got to get back to living life.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by garysremodel1

Melinda7.5 Sorry about spreading misinformation. I had absolutely no idea that a two week detox was even remotely possible! This must be one of the many tricks that Robert has up his sleeve, no doubt.

LondonToLA. I try my best to not give people the wrong help info. I mucked this one up pretty good, huh? Sorry about that. But I'm pretty certain about the "jumping off at 4mg is noooooooo" part though.
I did a pretty swift taper. So far its 50 days, I believe. I could not stay on sub for 6 months or more like the sub doc wanted. No thanks.
Except for some stomach issues, & general fatigue, I'm landing pretty good. Much better this way than trying to taper off hydro.
Keep it up, me amigo.

Gary

Gary .... you haven't been spreading misinformation. I announced back when this started what I was intending to do. But this was a special situation that I would refuse to do as "the norm" on the forum.

People arrive here in a mess, having abused opiates in large quantities for years. They need the 60 days we usually talk about to get their brain receptors working properly again and get endorphine production going. Melinda's situation was different.

Melinda had a good year clean, she was forced into a surgery she had no choice over, and she was in NO risk of relapse. If I started doing 10 day sub treatments for the general public the relapse rate would be close to 100%. No one would be successful following a ten day detox.

Melinda was an exception to the rule. She had to take the pain meds, but considering the amount of time she was on them I knew that I could detox her in less than two weeks, that being the amount of time it takes for a normal opiate detox to take place. I was only detoxing her, not trying to help her get clean. She didn't need that help. I would ONLY agree to do her detox in ten days as she wasn't in danger of relapse. She needed to be detoxed and then she would be safe to proceed without being in danger of failing.

The only way I would agree to do this even with Melinda was with her being in my presence so that I could personally monitor what was happening. I wanted to prove to myself as much as anything else that I know these meds well enough that I could be successful at this in two weeks. So this was nothing more than a one-time situation that I had complete control over.

Hope that makes more sense to you after considering the situation. If it had been anyone other than Melinda and myself I would NOT have had anything to do with this type of treatment. It was strictly something I knew that I could do in this situation.

We did the induction at 3mg. Then Melinda dropped to 2mg on the fourth day. She dropped to 1mg on day six, and finished up with .5mg for the remaining days. She had NO w/d problems but again, if she were the typical person who came here looking for help this would have been a total failure. Hope that makes sense. I would refuse to do this for anyone else. God bless.

[LondonToLA]

FYI. I decided to shut myself up and take Robert's advice about tapering. I am now on 1mg 2x a day and feel okay.

I am so grateful for life and for all of you guys and gals support. GRATEFUL! 

[LondonToLA]

Robert:

I am sorry if I have done anything to offend you & Melinda and/or make it seem like I am not serious about getting off of my subs.

You don't know how prostrate I am to this whole thing and how much I just want to get clean. I'm reading many of the posts on here on Suboxone, and I don't expect miracles. I wish I had taken advantage of everyone's help on her much earlier, when I was relatively sober (I am going on my 5th day clean).

I hope you haven't given up on me, but I know that I am certainly not in a position to ask anyone for favors right now. I am going to continue to follow your advice & taper accordingly - I want off all extraneous meds, which is something I haven't really WANTED with all my heart probably ever, until now.

- Michael.

[melinda7.5]

Originally Posted by LondonToLA

Robert:

I am sorry if I have done anything to offend you & Melinda and/or make it seem like I am not serious about getting off of my subs.

You don't know how prostrate I am to this whole thing and how much I just want to get clean. I'm reading many of the posts on here on Suboxone, and I don't expect miracles. I wish I had taken advantage of everyone's help on her much earlier, when I was relatively sober (I am going on my 5th day clean).

I hope you haven't given up on me, but I know that I am certainly not in a position to ask anyone for favors right now. I am going to continue to follow your advice & taper accordingly - I want off all extraneous meds, which is something I haven't really WANTED with all my heart probably ever, until now.

- Michael.

Michael
You have never done anything to offend us ...we think the world of you..what ever you need just ask...Robert has not been feeling well, but if you need us just say something....i wasent sure if you were asking for something or just telling us your going to do it...
were here for you
Talk to you soon, Melinda

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Michael
You have never done anything to offend us ...we think the world of you..what ever you need just ask...Robert has not been feeling well, but if you need us just say something....i wasent sure if you were asking for something or just telling us your going to do it...
were here for you
Talk to you soon, Melinda

Thanks for the kind words Melinda. I didn't realize Robert has been ill; I hope he feels better soon!

I think I'm just looking for reassurance that I'll be OKAY. I scared the heck out of myself and my partner this weekend - I'm sure it was Suboxone and Ambien mixture related. I have been on Subox for 1 week as of today, and I just want off. I took 1mg this AM.

I just want to be healthy; get back to living life; get back to the person who I was before I took my first opiate.

I am also treading in unknown waters, trying to figure out how I got here, and how I can get to shore, and if I can do this drug-free.

My major question that I would like answered is this: after 1 week on subs, going on my 2nd day of 1mg per day, would be okay to jump off to zero now? I have not been on suboxone for a long time at all, and I am scared of developing another habit on the suboxone.

I guess what I am really feeling & thinking is that I don't need the opiates at all. I would like (maybe this isn't possible) to continue taking 10mg Ambien PRN nightly (no more than that, ever!) when I can't sleep. I can't risk combining Suboxone and other drugs.

If anyone feels up to it, I'd appreciate an answer to the above whenever you get a chance.

Thanks so much for all of your support Melinda, Robert, and everyone else.

[melinda7.5]

Hi Michael

I know how scary it is I was terrified when I quit my drugs, I forgot how to be me...but it didn't take long and every day I made a small goal for myself
like walking or just trying to better myself...this is where the one day at a time comes in...just think about today...

I would try to go down to .5 before you jumped off the subs...I will check with Robert but I'm pretty sure that is what he would say...

Michael I think you are going to do fabulus...so put a big smile on your face and just be proud of yourself...

Talk to you soon, Melinda

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by melinda7.5

Hi Michael

I know how scary it is I was terrified when I quit my drugs, I forgot how to be me...but it didn't take long and every day I made a small goal for myself
like walking or just trying to better myself...this is where the one day at a time comes in...just think about today...

I would try to go down to .5 before you jumped off the subs...I will check with Robert but I'm pretty sure that is what he would say...

Michael I think you are going to do fabulus...so put a big smile on your face and just be proud of yourself...

Talk to you soon, Melinda

Thank you thank you thank you for your support, faith in me, and help.

I don't know why I'm totally freaking out. I just read on another thread on these forums that Robert basically summized that 'if there were no more pills, you would still live, and eventually be fine again.'

I've got to keep this in my head. I'm not going to die from not taking pills - I WILL die if I continue to take pills.

[melinda7.5]

Hi Michael
any time you get scared just get on here and tell us we have been there and know what your going thru.
I will help you calm your nerves...
I'm excited for you because I know your going to do it this time and your life is going to be wonderful...
Talk to you soon, Melinda

[LondonToLA]

Hi everyone,

Today I'm feeling OKAY. I know now for a fact that I cannot take or handle taking any type of prescribed sleeping medication. My body and brain cannot handle Ambien, Lunesta, or any type of benzo or benzo-like medication and I for sure can't handle opiates.

I just took .5mg Suboxone for the first time in two days. Hoping I start to feel better (less anxious) than I do now.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

I suggest you taper off the subs at the rate of 25% of the existing dose every four days as long as you aren't having w/d symptoms. Thats the tapering advice that works well here repeatedly.

Let's see how you're feeling after four days and we'll judge the situation at that time. Let us know. God bless.

Here I was thinking that symptoms showing after 4 days would not happen to me.

Boy was I wrong!

I just took .5mg this AM and am still feeling kind of poopy.

I am such a poor decision-maker, wishy-washy, especially on the issue of suboxone. It's like I need someone to think for me which, for me, is totally not the norm.

[Robert_325]

London ..... and you're also trying to come down off multiple drugs at the same time. This is NOT all subs. Look at your using history. God bless.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

London ..... and you're also trying to come down off multiple drugs at the same time. This is NOT all subs. Look at your using history. God bless.

You are right & I freely admit this publicly.

Why has it taken me almost 9 months to begin to seriously realize how much chemicals have messed up my life?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by LondonToLA

You are right & I freely admit this publicly.

Why has it taken me almost 9 months to begin to seriously realize how much chemicals have messed up my life?

Michael ..... I got your email and I'll be happy to help you. It takes us time to realize what we've done to ourselves because we are sick. We aren't bad, we just made bad choices. That's the bottom line. Then we start abusing multiple drugs and it becomes a battle that takes our total focus and commitment to beat.

I was where you are or worse when I got clean in 2002. I was taking thirty 30mg roxies daily, thirty 10/650 lorcets daily, 15-20mg xanax and 6-8mg klonopin along with 20-25 soma a day .... the list continues. I abused drugs for 35 years like that so I figure if I can do it not too many people come through here with a worse history than mine. It's about deciding your life is worth living, so you have to pay the price. Nothing else can be more important.

In NA they say that if you'll do as much to stay clean as you would do while using to find drugs you'll stay clean. Think about that. Think about some of the things you've done to get drugs that were crazy. I've done them too. That is what has to change. Once that happens getting off the drugs becomes workable.

So if we're going to make a plan it has to be based on honesty. Tell me exactly what you're taking now and over the last couple months ... everything! Tell me amounts, how often, etc. Don't leave out anything and we'll make you a plan that will work. I won't judge you so just shoot straight with me, don't leave anything out. God bless.

[LondonToLA]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Michael ..... I got your email and I'll be happy to help you. It takes us time to realize what we've done to ourselves because we are sick. We aren't bad, we just made bad choices. That's the bottom line. Then we start abusing multiple drugs and it becomes a battle that takes our total focus and commitment to beat.

I was where you are or worse when I got clean in 2002. I was taking thirty 30mg roxies daily, thirty 10/650 lorcets daily, 15-20mg xanax and 6-8mg klonopin along with 20-25 soma a day .... the list continues. I abused drugs for 35 years like that so I figure if I can do it not too many people come through here with a worse history than mine. It's about deciding your life is worth living, so you have to pay the price. Nothing else can be more important.

In NA they say that if you'll do as much to stay clean as you would do while using to find drugs you'll stay clean. Think about that. Think about some of the things you've done to get drugs that were crazy. I've done them too. That is what has to change. Once that happens getting off the drugs becomes workable.

So if we're going to make a plan it has to be based on honesty. Tell me exactly what you're taking now and over the last couple months ... everything! Tell me amounts, how often, etc. Don't leave out anything and we'll make you a plan that will work. I won't judge you so just shoot straight with me, don't leave anything out. God bless.

THANK YOU so much Robert. You seriously made me cry tears of joy; I am not exagerating.

Shooting straight from the hip for all to see:

Taking now: .5mg Suboxone once per day. I am prescribed 2mg which I am supposed to take twice per day. I took 2mg twice per day and I *think* I was pretty stable (if you look @ my posts) on this dose. I was taking 2mg 2x per day for about a week, then I decided I should taper (not sure that was the appropriate decision for me).

I am scared as heck to get addicted to anything, so I've been taking .5 mg Subs once per day, and have been since this past Saturday (9/5). * I will do whatever you recommend, Robert, even if I have to re-induct, etc*

I WAS taking 40-50mg of Ambien per day/night until around 8/28/09 at which time I quit cold turkey. I stopped until Saturday 9/5 when I took one which lead to a whole bunch. I am about 2000 miles away from any source of Ambien & will be so until 9/13.

I have NOT taken any opiates since prior to 8/28/09; nothing at all except for Suboxone as I have outlined.

I am taking 800mg of Skelaxin once per day for my messed up back as well as 500mg Naproxen for the same reason. I am taking 40mg Prozac per day for OCD/Anxiety (have been on Prozac since 1997).

If I have left anything out, it's completely unintentional and if I remember anything I've forgotten I will post it here immediately.

Thank you SO MUCH for not giving up on me.