[Hairyarmadillo]

skorpeo72I can't believe you brought up Monavie. I started to try that but don't know much about it. Read what little I did as a fluke. I do the noni juice and have been impressed with that. Not very tasty but hey, it helps. I don't have the alpha male thing going on but know what you mean. The first time I went off, I did so during summer break, which helped. Unfortunately, the beginning of the school year is the most stressful and demanding, so I ended up having the anxiety/depression then and figured I was just doomed to be on SSRIs the rest of my life. Once I found out about the occurence of rebound depression, I dug my heels in and am trying to stay on guard here. I do believe this will make me stronger, since it certainly didn't kill me-lol. We do have some more "cold turkies" here so maybe they will chime in and let you know how long it takes for the physical symptoms to subside. In spite of my growing cynicism with doctors prescribing SSRIs left and right, I still believe that there is a reason they and the marketers of this product feel this medication can be weaned away from more quickly. Somewhere out there, is someone who got off this stuff without all of our woes. Haven't found them yet, but there has to be someone It seems to affect everyone differently, some have a worse time than others. Hopefully you will be one of the lucky ones. Do get the supplements and stick around so we can see how it goes and support you as you go. I would so love to see someone get off this and not have any major issues. Oh, yeah, watch out for the mood swings. I am laid back but I, even I , have been hit with feelings of almost uncontrollable rage and then irrational thinking. Let me know how you like the Monavie. By the way, what in the world is in it??

[skyer]

EM: Sometimes I forget that you've dealt with the CFS. I don't blame you for putting up a fight against all this sickness. I often get upset, too, because I went through trauma with my ear and it took six months of recovery (including anxiety) and when I got better I knew I never wanted to return to that place -- where you watch life pass you by -- and now here I am, again. It's so devastating. Like you, I want to start a family and live life. We didn't sign up to be accidental drug addicts. It's so unfair, but we have no choice but to press on. I guess it just makes us stronger in the long run. Hope you're feeling better, tonight...

[dccll]

EM- I am so sorry to hear about your horrible weekend. It is so hard when you feel like no one understands or cares. The good news is that everyone on this forum understands. I have been very encouraged by your words in the past posts. The bad spells seem to mean that your brain is trying to recover. My period seems to bring on the more physical stuff for me as well. I hope your day goes better today.

Skyer I also hope you have a good day. You and EM are trailblazers for the rest of us. You also have brought hope when I needed it. Thank You

Hairy-It is good to hear you are doing well. You are encouraging to everyone.

All new Posters- Good luck on your journey. I think that must be what it is because everyone experiences this so differently.

Aunty- did your daughter arrive safely? I will continue to pray for her.

[Aarondawg]

Hey there, I am new to the site.

Well, I have been taking Lexapro since Feb '07 along with weekly therapy. It seem like the Lexapro was holding me back in my progress (tiredness, foggy and just feeling like ********************). I worked out a lot of old issues during therapy and I advised my Therapist last week that I did not take make Lexapro nor Nexium that I was on for 3 weeks and felt the best that I had felt in a long time. The next day I visited my pys. doctor and he advised that I should try not taking the 20mg of Lexapro and see if I continued to feel better. So, I have been cold turkey now for 1 week.

I have been experiencing the brain zaps and nausea and vivid dreams. I had a good day yesteday but awoke to the nausea this morning. The zaps are not a bad today.

While mentally, I feel better with energy again and drive, I am dealing with the withdrawals symptoms.

Anyone else gone "cold turkey" that would like to communicate with me? I definitely felt worse while on the drug.

Thank you,
Aarondawg

[Aarondawg]

Hey there, I am new to the site.

Well, I have been taking Lexapro since Feb '07 along with weekly therapy. It seem like the Lexapro was holding me back in my progress (tiredness, foggy and just feeling bad. I worked out a lot of old issues during therapy (deep ones that weere buried) and I advised my Therapist last week that I did not take (that day) make Lexapro nor Nexium that I was on for 3 weeks and felt the best that I had felt in a long time. The next day I visited my pys. doctor and he advised that I should try not taking the 20mg of Lexapro and see if I continued to feel better. So, I have been cold turkey now for 7 days now.

I have been experiencing the brain zaps and nausea and vivid dreams. I had a good day yesteday but awoke to the nausea this morning. The zaps are not as bad today.

While mentally, I feel better with energy again and drive, I am dealing with the withdrawals symptoms.

Anyone else gone "cold turkey" that would like to communicate with me? I definitely felt worse while on the drug.

Thank you,
Aarondawg

[antidote]

Skyer:

i was definitely one of the confused ones with that story as it seemed the previous day things were not going so great . Great story though - that is what we are all hoping for!!

EM:

Wow, the weekend sounded horrible. The worst part is just the lack of understanding on the part of other people. Unfortunately most people are very self-absorbed and self-centered. Ironically, it is the people who are in pain who become more sensitive to the pain of others.

i completely identify with your frustration at still experiencing these symptoms after 6 months. It makes it even worse to feel great for a few weeks only to have a setback like this. i hope you are doing better now. Every day is a new opportunity to get that much closer to putting this all behind us.




BTW, i spoke to my brother who is an MSW and deals with many people on SSRIs and he maintains that there are definitely people who came off of them with no withdrawal symptoms. Now he happens to be very much AGAINST these drugs (before i started Lex he warned me in the strongest terms against doing it - but i didn't listen). He subscribes to the Thomas Szasz school of thought (as described in his book "The Myth of Mental Illnes") and doesn't believe in "chemical imbalance". Actually he won't even take Tylenol or Motrin because as he says he doesn't want to clog his liver up with all kinds of artificial chemicals. i also showed him Breggin's book which he thought was right on the money. But he did tell me that we need to realize that all people are not the same. Some metabolize the drugs differently, some are more sensitive to drugs than others, maybe others tapered differently - there could be a whole host of reasons as to why some may experience it while others do not. The point being that just because we may find people who do not have these symptoms does not mean that it is not an issue for those of us who do.

At the same time he said that it only makes sense that if people are dealing with these symptoms for an extended period of time - for whatever reason, even if it is only because of Lex withdrawal symptoms - that it could affect the way we think and cause us to become more anxious or depressed. In other words, the symptoms may be Lex-withdrawl induced and not the result of anxiety/depression, but, we could still be prone to start experiencing anxiety/depression because of having to deal with the symptoms for so long.

I told him about my CBT (Cognitive-Behavioral-Therapy) book and he said there is a lot of good stuff in CBT which was spawned off of REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) developed by Albert Ellis in 1955. While very similar, REBT focuses not only on our thinking patterns (i.e. the cognition) and our behaviors (taking action to engage in normal activities) but does deals with some of our "emotional" beliefs. Again, very similar approaches.

In either case i think he made a very good point that even though our symptoms are Lex-induced, over time - especially if we have to deal with them for 6 - 18 months - they could affect us, our thinking, behaviors and emotions and we should make sure that we address those in a positive way.

Sorry for the long post!

[antidote]

I know this is a recurring topic but i really need something to help me get to sleep. i had some experience with sleep deprivation before going on Lex and do not want to go back there!

Want to stay away from sleep meds like Ambien though. What about Melatonin if i am already 4 months off of Lex?

I tried the walnuts but i don't think it is a blood sugar problem since my blood sugar test came back normal and i am really staying off of most sugar now.

i saw something about eating bananas because of their Tryptophan content.

Then there was one of the flower remedies which might help but don't remeber which

What works for you guys??

[skorpeo72]

I originally went on lexapro 4 years ago as you can see in my past posts for severe sleep disorder and anxiety that came a long with it.
I was a complete insomniac.

I can tell you I have been taking mona vie for the past couple days after what I would cal SEVERE withdrawal symptoms and it has helped sooo much.
It is like a god send.
The symtoms are much less severe and I can actually sleep, unlike during the first week.

If anyone wants to try it I can certainly point them in the right direction as I plan on taking this through the entire process.

Originally Posted by antidote

I know this is a recurring topic but i really need something to help me get to sleep. i had some experience with sleep deprivation before going on Lex and do not want to go back there!

Want to stay away from sleep meds like Ambien though. What about Melatonin if i am already 4 months off of Lex?

I tried the walnuts but i don't think it is a blood sugar problem since my blood sugar test came back normal and i am really staying off of most sugar now.

i saw something about eating bananas because of their Tryptophan content.

Then there was one of the flower remedies which might help but don't remeber which

What works for you guys??

[antidote]

Rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT) is a comprehensive approach to psychological treatment that deals not only with the emotional and behavioral aspects of human disturbance, but places a great deal of
stress on its thinking component. Human beings are exceptionally complex, and there neither seems to be any simple way in which they become "emotionally disturbed," nor is there a single way in which they can
be helped to be less-defeating. Their psychological problems arise from their misperceptions and mistaken cognitions about what they perceive; from their emotional underreactions or overreactions to normal and unusual stimuli; and from their habitually dysfunctional behavior patterns, which enable them to keep repeating nonadjustive responses even when they "know" that they are behaving poorly.


Philosophical Conditioning

REBT is based on the assumption that what we label our "emotional" reactions are largely caused by our conscious and unconscious evaluations, interpretations, and philosophies. Thus, we feel anxious or depressed because we strongly convince ourselves that it is terrible when we fail at something or that we can't stand the pain of being rejected. We feel hostile because we vigorously believe that people who behave unfairly to us absolutely should not act the way they indubitably do, and that it is utterly
insufferable when they frustrate us.

Like stoicism, a school of philosophy which existed some two thousand years ago. Rational emotive behavior therapy holds that there are virtually no good reasons why human beings have to make themselves very neurotic, no matter what kind of negative stimuli impinge on them. It gives them full
leeway to feel strong negative emotions, such as sorrow, regret, displeasure, annoyance, rebellion, and determination to change social conditions. It believes, however, that when they experience certain self-defeating and unhealthy emotions (such as panic, depression, worthlessness, or rage), they are usually adding an unrealistic and illogical hypothesis to their empirically-based view that their own acts or those of others are reprehensible or inefficient and that something would better be done about changing
them.

Rational emotive behavior therapists -- often within the first session or two of seeing a client -- can almost always put their finger on a few central irrational philosophies of life which this client is vehemently believing. They can show clients how these ideas inevitably lead to emotional problems and hence to presenting clinical symptoms, can demonstrate exactly how they forthrightly question and challenge these ideas, and can often induce them to work to uproot them and to replace them with scientifically testable
hypotheses about themselves and the world which are not likely to get them into future neurotic difficulties.


Irrational Ideas That Cause and Sustain Neurosis

Rational therapy holds that certain core irrational ideas, which have been clinically observed, are at the root of most neurotic disturbance. They are:

1.The idea that it is a dire necessity for adults to be loved by significant others for almost everything they do -- instead of their concentrating on their own self-respect, on winning approval for practical purposes, and on loving rather than on being loved.

2.The idea that certain acts are awful or wicked, and that people who perform such acts should be severely damned -- instead of the idea that certain acts are self-defeating or antisocial, and that people who perform such acts are behaving stupidly, ignorantly, or neurotically, and would be better helped to change. People's poor behaviors do not make them rotten individuals.

3.The idea that it is horrible when things are not the way we like them to be -- instead of the idea that it is too bad, that we would better try to change or control bad conditions so that they become more satisfactory, and, if that is not possible, we had better temporarily accept and gracefully lump their existence.

4.The idea that human misery is invariably externally caused and is forced on us by outside people and events -- instead of the idea that neurosis is largely caused by the view that we take of unfortunate conditions.

5.The idea that if something is or may be dangerous or fearsome we should be terribly upset and endlessly obsess about it -- instead of the idea that one would better frankly face it and render it non-dangerous and, when that is not possible, accept the inevitable.

6.The idea that it is easier to avoid than to face life difficulties and self-responsibilities -- instead of the idea that the so-called easy way is usually much harder in the long run.

7.The idea that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than ourself on which to rely -- instead of the idea that it is better to take the risks of thinking and acting less dependently.

8.The idea that we should be thoroughly competent, intelligent, and achieving in all possible respects -- instead of the idea that we would better do rather than always need to do well and accept ourself as a quite imperfect creature, who has general human limitations and specific fallibilities.

9.The idea that because something once strongly affected our life, it should indefinitely affect it -- instead of the idea that we can learn from our past experiences but not be overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.

10.The idea that we must have certain and perfect control over things -- instead of the idea that the world is full of probability and chance and that we can still enjoy life despite this.

11.The idea that human happiness can be achieved by inertia and inaction -- instead of the idea that we tend to be happiest when we are vitally absorbed in creative pursuits, or when we are devoting ourselves to people or projects outside ourselves.

12.The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot help feeling disturbed about things -- instead of the idea that we have real control over our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the musturbatory hypotheses which we often employ to create them.



The ABC’s of feelings & behaviours

American psychologist Albert Ellis, the originator of Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy (REBT), was one of the first to systematically show how beliefs determine the way human beings feel and behave. Dr. Ellis developed the 'ABC’ model to demonstrate this.

'A’ refers to whatever started things off: a circumstance, event or experience - or just thinking about something which has happened. This triggers off thoughts ('B’), which in turn create a reaction - feelings and behaviours - ('C’).

To see this in operation, let’s meet Alan. A young man who had always tended to doubt himself, Alan imagined that other people did not like him, and that they were only friendly because they pitied him. One day, a friend passed him in the street without returning his greeting - to which Alan reacted negatively. Here is the event, Alan’s beliefs, and his reaction, put into the ABC format:

A. What started things off:

Friend passed me in the street without speaking to me.

B. Beliefs about A.:

1.He’s ignoring me. He doesn’t like me.
2.I could end up without friends for ever.
3.That would be terrible.
4.For me to be happy and feel worthwhile, people must like me.
5.I’m unacceptable as a friend - so I must be worthless as a person.

C. Reaction:

Feelings: worthless, depressed.
Behaviours: avoiding people generally.

Now, someone who thought differently about the same event would react in another way:

A. What started things off:

Friend passed me in the street without speaking to me.

B. Beliefs about A.:

1.He didn’t ignore me deliberately. He may not have seen me.
2.He might have something on his mind.
3.I’d like to help if I can.

C. Reaction:

Feelings: Concerned.
Behaviours: Went to visit friend, to see how he is.

These examples show how different ways of viewing the same event can lead to different reactions. The same principle operates in reverse: when people react alike, it is because they are thinking in similar ways.

[antidote]

The rules we live by

What we tell ourselves in specific situations depends on the rules we hold. Everyone has a set of general 'rules’. Some will be rational, others will be self-defeating or irrational. Each person’s set is different.

Mostly subconscious, these rules determine how we react to life. When an event triggers off a train of thought, what we consciously think depends on the general rules we subconsciously apply to the event.

Let us say that you hold the general rule: 'To be worthwhile, I must succeed at everything I do.’ You happen to fail an examination; an event which, coupled with the underlying rule, leads you to the conclusion: 'I’m not worthwhile.’

Underlying rules are generalisations: one rule can apply to many situations. If you believe, for example: 'I can’t stand discomfort and pain and must avoid them at all costs,’ you might apply this to the dentist, to work, to relationships, and to life in general.

Why be concerned about your rules? While most will be valid and helpful, some will be self-defeating. Faulty rules will lead to faulty conclusions. Take the rule: 'If I am to feel OK about myself, others must like and approve of me.’ Let us say that your boss tells you off. You may (rightly) think: 'He is angry with me’ - but you may wrongly conclude: 'This proves I’m a failure.’
And changing the situation (for instance, getting your boss to like you) would still leave the underlying rule untouched. It would then be there to bother you whenever some future event triggered it off.

Most self-defeating rules are a variation of one or other of the '12 Self-defeating Beliefs’ listed at the end of this article. Take a look at this list now. Which ones do you identify with? Which are the ones that guide your reactions?

What are self-defeating beliefs?

To describe a belief as self-defeating, or irrational, is to say that:

It distorts reality (it’s a misinterpretation of what’s happening); or it involves some illogical ways of evaluating yourself, others, and the world around you: awfulising, can’t-stand-it-itis, demanding and people-rating;

It blocks you from achieving your goals and purposes;

It creates extreme emotions which persist, and which distress and immobilise; and

It leads to behaviours that harm yourself, others, and your life in general.

Four ways to screw yourself up

There are four typical ways of thinking that will make you feel bad or behave in dysfunctional ways:

1.Awfulising: using words like 'awful’, 'terrible’, 'horrible’, 'catastrophic’ to describe something - e.g. 'It would be terrible if …’, 'It’s the worst thing that could happen’, 'That would be the end of the world’.

2.Cant-stand-it-itis: viewing an event or experience as unbearable - e.g. 'I can’t stand it’, 'It’s absolutely unbearable’, I’ll die if I get rejected’.

3.Demanding: using 'shoulds’ (moralising) or 'musts’ - e.g. 'I should not have done that, 'I must not fail’, 'I need to be loved’, 'I have to have a drink’.

4.People-rating: labelling or rating your total self (or someone else’s) - e.g. 'I’m stupid /hopeless /useless /worthless.’

Rational thinking

Rational thinking presents a vivid contrast to its illogical opposite:

It is based on reality - it emphasises seeing things as they really are, keeping their badness in perspective, tolerating frustration and discomfort, preferring rather than demanding, and self-acceptance;

It helps you achieve your goals and purposes;

It creates emotions you can handle; and

It helps you behave in ways which promote your aims and survival.

We are not talking about so-called 'positive thinking’. Rational thinking is realistic thinking. It is concerned with facts - the real world - rather than subjective opinion or wishful thinking.

Realistic thinking leads to realistic emotions. Negative feelings aren’t always bad for you. Neither are all positive feelings beneficial. Feeling happy when someone you love has died, for example, may hinder you from grieving properly. Or to be unconcerned in the face of real danger could put your survival at risk. Realistic thinking avoids exaggeration of both kinds - negative and positive.

From Self-defeat to Rational Living



Self-defeating Beliefs

Rational Beliefs


1. I need love and approval from those
significant to me - and I must avoid
disapproval from any source.

1. Love and approval are good things to
have, and I'll seek them when I can. But
they are not necessities - I can survive
(even though uncomfortably)
without them.

2. To be worthwhile as a person I must
achieve, succeed at what ever I do, and
make no mistakes.

2. I'll always seek to achieve as much as I
can - but unfailing success and
ompetence is unrealistic. Better I just
accept myself as a person, separate to my
performance.

3. People should always do the right thing.
When they behave obnoxiously, unfairly
or selfishly, they must be blamed and
punished.

3. It's unfortunate that people sometimes do
bad things. But humans are not yet
perfect - and upsetting myself won't
change that reality.

4. Things must be the way I want them to
be - otherwise life will be intolerable.

4. There is no law which says that things
have to be the way I want. It's
disappointing, but I can stand it -
especially if I avoid catastrophising.

5. My unhappiness is caused by things
outside my control - so there is little I can
do to feel any better.

5. Many external factors are outside my
control. But it is my thoughts (not the
externals) which cause my feelings. And I
can learn to control my thoughts.

6. I must worry about things that could be
dangerous, unpleasant or frightening -
otherwise they might happen.

6. Worrying about things that might go
wrong won't stop them happening. It will,
though, ensure I get upset and disturbed
right now!

7. I can be happier by avoiding life's
difficulties, unpleasantness, and
responsibilities.

7. Avoiding problems is only easier in the
short term - putting things off can make
them worse later on. It also gives me more
time to worry about them!

8. Everyone needs to depend on someone
stronger than themselves.

8. Relying on someone else can lead to
dependent behaviour. It is OK to seek
help - as long as I learn to trust myself and
my own judgement.

9. Events in my past are the cause of my
problems - and they continue to influence
my feelings and behaviours now.

9. The past can't influence me now. My
current beliefs cause my reactions. I may
have learned these beliefs in the past,
but can choose to analyse and change
them in the present.

10. I should become upset when other people
have problems and feel unhappy when
they're sad.

10. I can't change other people's problems
and bad feelings by getting myself upset.

11. I should not have to feel discomfort and
pain - I can't stand them and must avoid
them at all costs.

11. Why should I in particular not feel
discomfort and pain? I don't like them,
but I can stand it. Also, my life would be
very restricted if I always avoided
discomfort.

12. Every problem should have an ideal
solution, and it is intolerable when one
can't be found.

12. Problems usually have many possible
solutions. It is better to stop waiting for
the perfect one and get on with the best
available. I can live with less than the
ideal.

[Hairyarmadillo]

Antidote I have had sleep issues FOREVER (both on and off the Lexapro). I am now taking that SleepMD or on other days I take the Relacore PM. I have not noticed any major issues with the SleepMD which does have melatonin. And within 2 hours of taking it, my eyes are VERY heavy. I have tried other OTC things but these are the first ones that work for me. My insomnia is compounded by the fact that I am now stressed over not sleeping.

[skorpeo72]

I can completely understand what you are saying Hairy,
my original reason for going on the lexapro was because of my sleep disorder.
I would usually go for about 3 days with no sleep and then sleep maybe a couple hours.
as you can imagine mentally i was very disturbed at this point and useless.
Since it has been so long since I had these issues which the 20mg every night of lexapro seemed to solve I now beleive i have myself into a healthy sleep habit.
Well of course that idea came crashing down with the withdrawals...figures!
I will not put myself back on any meds period again.
I have learned so much from this.
I know that some people do actually need the drugs for imbalances but since Im not one of them I have made it a vow from this point forward to use only natural methods of health.

I tried a few different methods in the past almost 2 weeks now and so far the mona vie has worked the best on all counts. I actually woke up today so refreshed (Thank god) I need the break...lol
And hopefully it stays this easy in the future.

So ...with that said ...Thank you all for your input and blessings!!!
I am in grand hopes that the nightmare is over 0r at least lightening its load.
Just a final thought for this post.
Dont try the cold turkey thing !!!
The worst experience of my life!!
enough said

Originally Posted by Hairyarmadillo

Antidote I have had sleep issues FOREVER (both on and off the Lexapro). I am now taking that SleepMD or on other days I take the Relacore PM. I have not noticed any major issues with the SleepMD which does have melatonin. And within 2 hours of taking it, my eyes are VERY heavy. I have tried other OTC things but these are the first ones that work for me. My insomnia is compounded by the fact that I am now stressed over not sleeping.

[elizabethmaria]

Hello again,
I wanted to thank you all for your kind posts - I really had a rough time, and am sorry about being so negative, but was sure I was headed to the grave.... thank you for pulling me through!!!!!!!!!!! I'm doing a little better, but have still a splitting headache -- I think just so many seizures unending in one day causes damage itself - I have to be more protective that way, whether others understand now or not..

About sleep --
I have posted this before, but I really really understand a lot of sleep difficulties! I know it's sooo hard.. But, I firmly stand and believe that people should NOT TAKE ANYTHING FOR SLEEP... with CFS (which I have), you have a medical problem that results in poor sleep, insomnia, light sleep, etc. due to a brain disorder in the hypothalamus/adrenal/pituitary axis, and even THEN, the highest research (and I'm living proof) shows that you have to retrain your brain to good sleep hygeine, and you WILL sleep naturally on your own.. no meds. Medication WILL screw up your brain/sleep cycle. It will cause great pain. One of the classic symptoms of sleep cycle disorder due to use of sleep meds is not sleeping for several days, then sleeping a few hours, then not sleeping a long time, then a few hours, etc etc. I have totally been there, I know the extreme pain! but if you GET OFF the medication, practice excellent sleep hygeine, you WILL teach the body to sleep on its own -- it is designed to do that naturally! It takes weeks, even several months, before the brain is cued in on naturally falling and staying asleep. One mUST understand that it takes TIME. you can't freak out because you haven't slept, and its been days/weeks since you took anything, -- it will happen. you won't die - you will get through the day, or maybe not very well, but after time it will IMPROVE. I wouldn't be so strong if I hadn't walked in your shoes!!! I know that withdrawal can also cause insomnia, but if you really want to help heal your brain, you'll do the best by NOT taking anything.. I know, then you get anxious about not sleeping, DOESN't MATTER.
I strongly recommend looking at the sleep clinic websites for proper sleep hygeine.. they are excellent info, I had a favorite with fun animation clips, but can't find it !! if I do, I'll post the links.. Anyways.. if you have or suspect sleep apnea, serious sleep disorder that your spouse has observed, then you need to go to a sleep clinic, but otherwise, follow the advise, it DOES work. Since being off the drugs, and having really good sleep hygeine, I sleep EVERY night, always.. sometimes a little lighter than other days, but always sleep good - often like a baby! even with all the withdrawal nightmares too! it's a miracle- we are designed to sleep, but just like ssri's, there is an harmful attitude in our current society that 'we just can't sleep' something is wrong with me... need a pill... when the reverse is happening - Sleep meds are VERY POWERFUL mind altering/consciousness alterning medications - and just like ssri's, they mess you up!!


Ok, off my soapbox, but I've learned my lesson about that as strongly as about ssri's - which we know is pretty strong! Research on sleep - there's so many awesome websites - the data is very clear, poor hygeine, and sleep meds are the Major problems behind insomnia...

I sound like an old grandma, but I don't want you guys to suffer more than you already have! i luv you and wanta help!

thanks again.. see, you made me feel better and now I'm on your case!!
love, Elizabethmarie

[Hairyarmadillo]

Elizabethmarie I am just glad to see you feeling like getting on your soapbox. I do agree about the sleep meds which is why I went with the natural supplements. Do you think these are harmful as well? Years ago I got hooked on seroquel for sleep, then got off that and have been on benadryl both for allergies and sleep. Got off that, but then had days of massive allergy attacks and got used to the sleep that comes easy with it. I figured the natural supplements would allow me to get back into a normal sleep cycle. Actually before those allergy attacks, I had taken the Relacore PM which is herbal and had gotten to where I could drift off without anything, but also avoided those days of no sleep in between. I am hoping to do the same this time because I hate to feel like I have to take something. Do you know if the natural supplements are detrimental like the other sleep aids?

[elizabethmaria]

Hi Hairy,
Yes, sorry about the soapbox - . But I feel just as strongly as about ssri's!.. Well, honestly, I think the natural ones are still not doing people a service. The whole point is to get your brain to do it on its own, then its working correctly and you'll be getting your true best sleep. You won't have days in between that you don't sleep once your cycle's set - that just means your brain isn't there signaling correctly. Actually, its those days that you don't sleep, that make you REALLY exhausted, that help, with no meds added, to signal your brain to start working/relaxing on its own. I don't know, that's just my experience - I know everyone has their own opinion, but that's what I've researched, and I even went to a very good sleep clinic in seattle and talked w/ doc.. it's the one thing that top research DOESN't want to push meds on patients 'cause they know it makes it worse! I've found that even if I feel I sleep less one night, because of cold/or something happened (tree falls on house, etc.), etc., I still feel WAY better the next day than before - 'cause when there's nothing in there, your body automatically makes up for it by putting you in deeper sleep, can't do that when there's drugs in the mix. I WISH I could find that web site -- it was soo cute and cool.. little animations of sleep people, and why/how come they don't sleep... so cute!

I just know how painful it is not to sleep , I was missing work, crying, and like falling apart cause I couldn't sleep - If I can sleep fine, I know others can too - cause I even have a brain problem that makes sleeping quite hard...
I guess there's nothing like personal experience though to really bring it home...
happy sleeping
EM

[overtherainbow]

I swear by this. Magnesium malate is what I take (Source Naturals). I take one tablet in the morning, one before sleep. My naturopath wanted me to take 2 in the morning, 2 later in the day, but I can't tolerate that much. 1 and 1 is jusssssst right for me.

Here's a little blurb I found online:

"Magnesium, in doses of approximately 250 milligrams, can help induce sleep. Magnesium deficiency is responsible for nervousness that prevents sleep. Magnesium-rich foods include kelp, wheat bran, almonds, cashews, blackstrap molasses, and brewer's yeast."

Google magnesium and insomnia and do some more reading on your own. Information is available in but the first few "hits".

Magnesium is relatively cheap and is good for soooooo many things ! There are many sources quoted as saying that we can't get enough magnesium in our diets (soil is depleted, etc).

[elizabethmaria]

I found it I found it!!

It's the National Sleep Foundation website ---! It's so good, and on it are these animations, which seem funny, but actually give lots of good info on what happens when you sleep, what causes sleep problems, etc.. I HIGHLY recommed anyone having trouble sleeping to explore this site.. Here's the interactive website address..

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/site/...ional_Tool.htm

basic address is www.sleepfoundation.org ... look for the Doze Family animations..

Elizabethmarie

[Hairyarmadillo]

Thanks, Elizabethmarie. I am going to try to get back to my regular sleep cycle. I do feel better now that I am not taking the benadryl but want to get totally independent of this stuff. I don't do quite as bad during the summer but when school starts I don't sleep at all. Am trying to pick up the activity level and that will help. The days I go out in the pool, I sleep a lot better. Overtherainbow,I did not get the right magnesium but I am definitely going to get magnesium malate. Just hate to waste what I have. I now swear by magnesium. It is wonderful! The ironic thing is that if I could go to sleep when I am tired, I would sleep fine. I had the ritual where I read for an hour and my eyes will be closing on their own then I just cut off the light and sleep. But the hubby stays up later and I can either stay up later to wait for him or get woke up when he comes to bed. I hate always leaving him and going to bed (since he comes along around 10:30) but if I go in the bedroom at 9, read a bit, I am asleep by 10.

[moody215]

I need advice on this one....my son is 12 yrs old he was seeing a psychiatrist who was prescribing his meds....we missed an appointment and cancelled one w/out 24 hours notice. the doctor now refuses to see him. he is now out of his meds....i have called the doctors office many times to get refills or to find out what to do....NO ONE has called me back it has been a week or more. I don't know what to do....is this neglect. How can a doctor just stop seeing someone...leaving us hanging. what can i do?
















ome two thousand years ago. Rational emotive behavior therapy holds that there are virtually no good reasons why human beings have to make themselves very neurotic, no matter what kind of negative stimuli impinge on them. It gives them full
leeway to feel strong negative emotions, such as sorrow, regret, displeasure, annoyance, rebellion, and determination to change social conditions. It believes, however, that when they experience certain self-defeating and unhealthy emotions (such as panic, depression, worthlessness, or rage), they are usually adding an unrealistic and illogical hypothesis to their empirically-based view that their own acts or those of others are reprehensible or inefficient and that something would better be done about changing
them.

Rational emotive behavior therapists -- often within the first session or two of seeing a client -- can almost always put their finger on a few central irrational philosophies of life which this client is vehemently believing. They can show clients how these ideas inevitably lead to emotional problems and hence to presenting clinical symptoms, can demonstrate exactly how they forthrightly question and challenge these ideas, and can often induce them to work to uproot them and to replace them with scientifically testable
hypotheses about themselves and the world which are not likely to get them into future neurotic difficulties.


Irrational Ideas That Cause and Sustain Neurosis

Rational therapy holds that certain core irrational ideas, which have been clinically observed, are at the root of most neurotic disturbance. They are:

1.The idea that it is a dire necessity for adults to be loved by significant others for almost everything they do -- instead of their concentrating on their own self-respect, on winning approval for practical purposes, and on loving rather than on being loved.

2.The idea that certain acts are awful or wicked, and that people who perform such acts should be severely damned -- instead of the idea that certain acts are self-defeating or antisocial, and that people who perform such acts are behaving stupidly, ignorantly, or neurotically, and would be better helped to change. People's poor behaviors do not make them rotten individuals.

3.The idea that it is horrible when things are not the way we like them to be -- instead of the idea that it is too bad, that we would better try to change or control bad conditions so that they become more satisfactory, and, if that is not possible, we had better temporarily accept and gracefully lump their existence.

4.The idea that human misery is invariably externally caused and is forced on us by outside people and events -- instead of the idea that neurosis is largely caused by the view that we take of unfortunate conditions.

5.The idea that if something is or may be dangerous or fearsome we should be terribly upset and endlessly obsess about it -- instead of the idea that one would better frankly face it and render it non-dangerous and, when that is not possible, accept the inevitable.

6.The idea that it is easier to avoid than to face life difficulties and self-responsibilities -- instead of the idea that the so-called easy way is usually much harder in the long run.

7.The idea that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than ourself on which to rely -- instead of the idea that it is better to take the risks of thinking and acting less dependently.

8.The idea that we should be thoroughly competent, intelligent, and achieving in all possible respects -- instead of the idea that we would better do rather than always need to do well and accept ourself as a quite imperfect creature, who has general human limitations and specific fallibilities.

9.The idea that because something once strongly affected our life, it should indefinitely affect it -- instead of the idea that we can learn from our past experiences but not be overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.

10.The idea that we must have certain and perfect control over things -- instead of the idea that the world is full of probability and chance and that we can still enjoy life despite this.

11.The idea that human happiness can be achieved by inertia and inaction -- instead of the idea that we tend to be happiest when we are vitally absorbed in creative pursuits, or when we are devoting ourselves to people or projects outside ourselves.

12.The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot help feeling disturbed about things -- instead of the idea that we have real control over our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the musturbatory hypotheses which we often employ to create them.



The ABC’s of feelings & behaviours

American psychologist Albert Ellis, the originator of Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy (REBT), was one of the first to systematically show how beliefs determine the way human beings feel and behave. Dr. Ellis developed the 'ABC’ model to demonstrate this.

'A’ refers to whatever started things off: a circumstance, event or experience - or just thinking about something which has happened. This triggers off thoughts ('B’), which in turn create a reaction - feelings and behaviours - ('C’).

To see this in operation, let’s meet Alan. A young man who had always tended to doubt himself, Alan imagined that other people did not like him, and that they were only friendly because they pitied him. One day, a friend passed him in the street without returning his greeting - to which Alan reacted negatively. Here is the event, Alan’s beliefs, and his reaction, put into the ABC format:

A. What started things off:

Friend passed me in the street without speaking to me.

B. Beliefs about A.:

1.He’s ignoring me. He doesn’t like me.
2.I could end up without friends for ever.
3.That would be terrible.
4.For me to be happy and feel worthwhile, people must like me.
5.I’m unacceptable as a friend - so I must be worthless as a person.

C. Reaction:

Feelings: worthless, depressed.
Behaviours: avoiding people generally.

Now, someone who thought differently about the same event would react in another way:

A. What started things off:

Friend passed me in the street without speaking to me.

B. Beliefs about A.:

1.He didn’t ignore me deliberately. He may not have seen me.
2.He might have something on his mind.
3.I’d like to help if I can.

C. Reaction:

Feelings: Concerned.
Behaviours: Went to visit friend, to see how he is.

These examples show how different ways of viewing the same event can lead to different reactions. The same principle operates in reverse: when people react alike, it is because they are thinking in similar ways.[/quote]

[auntybiotic]

What your son's doctor is doing is illegal...it is called patient abandonment and he can be sued for this.
I would call the office again and tell them that you need a immediate appointment and need meds called in before that appointment. Firmly explain that you are aware of patient abandonment and that you intend to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent your son from becoming ill because of office policies over missed appointments.

If the policy is to be charged a minimal fee for missed appointments tell them that you will pay that fee at the next visit but that you will not have your son abondoned and go into withdrawals due to being out of medications. Please tell them if you are not seen immediately that you will go to a ER and complain about this doctor and will seek an attorney. Tell them you will also report this incident to the American Medical Society.

If they refuse to still see you then go to the ER and explain the situation and ask them if they can give your son medication and get him in immediately with a new psychiatrist that is associated with that hospital. Because you were in the ER a psychiatrist should fit you into their schedule in the next 24 hours. You will have to bring in the empty medication bottle as evidence that your son is taking this medication. I worked in a hospital for 25 years and this should be the protocol. The ER doctor should prescribe enough medication till you get into see the psychriatrist associated with the hospital or on call.

I would then consult a attorney about suing the first doctor. In fact can you forward their office a copy of this post? Maybe you should mention his name to allow others to think twice before chosing him as a doctor.

[auntybiotic]

Please pray for her saftey and not to miss any doses of her lexapro.

I will try and answer some of your questions later this week....I am exhausted.

aunty

Thanks

[kimberoo]

Hello All!
After reading so many posts I feel that I've gotten to know many of you already. This is my first time in any forum so go easy on me guys!
I am here for my husband. He was first prescribed Paxil in 1994 when his father died. It really helped as he has always been a bit high anxiety and has more than his share of stress (we own restaurants). In 2001 the Dr. put him on Paxil CR, but he started having severe reactions. Instead of weaning him off (which I wanted, who said this was to be a lifelong commitment to one pill?) he switched him to Lexapro. It took away whatever was causing the harm from the Paxil CR and we went along happily until October 2005. He'd had a tooth infection and was put on antibiotics, within a week or so he had a sinus infection and the antibiotic was changed to Penicillin, within a few days he had n episode at work where he thought he was dying (red face, eyes popping out, choking, lack of oxygen). He was brought to the ER and they surmised that he had an allergic reaction to the Penicillin. Since that day he has had too numerous to count episodes of extreme dizziness. We decided that he needed to get off Lexapro and unfortunately we can't remember exactly when he started tapering but it has been around a year I suppose. He used to take 20mg. per day. At the present he is taking 2.5 mg. every other day which we justed started this week. Previous to this he was taking 2.5 for 2 days and 1 day nothing. Previous tho that he was taking 2.5 for 3 days and 1 day nothing, usually for 3 to 4 weeks per taper or more if needed. I've learned so much from you all, but PLEASE help me to understand how long we can expect for him to be miserable. Here are his most recent symptoms:

Extreme Dizziness
Vertigo, BUT not the room spinning, inside his head spins!
His brain trembles
headaches
blurred vision
electric shocks in head
brain feels like jello, he can feel it move he says
near passing out, becoming the worst of all symptoms at this point

Today in the bank he ran out into the car to throw water on his head! He carries a bottle of water with constantly in case he feels he's going to pass out. I'm having to drive him everywhere because he's afraid to be alone in the car in case he faints. His fear of fainting is becoming his worst obstacle now. He is not a depressed person, high anxiety, high stress, yes, but these withdrawal symptoms are making him depressed now because he can't function. He's a wonderful father of 3 who has always been the planner, the "let's jump in the car & do something on the spur" kind of dad and he feels that he's neglecting them and putting me through hell. Patience and pity is what is keeping me sane, yes I'm stressed to no end right now, our life has changed dramatically, but I love this man and want him well.

Have any of you heard of anyone being on SSRI'S for 13 years and actually getting off of them for good? The longest I've seen so far is 4 years. Please give us some hope and ideas of what to expect soon. He also takes 200 mg of Sectral for heart palpitations and a baby aspirin, vitamin D and a multivitamin daily. We have been getting through the rough times with 2.5 to .5 mg of Klonopin every few days, although it's beginning to be a daily dose anymore.

He's been to a Neurologist, Cardioologist, Physical Therapist, Internist, Orthopedic Surgeon, ENT.
He's had EKG, STRESS TEST, BRAIN MRI, NECK MRI, NECK XRAYS, BLOODWORK (FULL MATABOLIC), EEG,VNG, ADRENAL URINE FAST, ENT, HEARING TESTS.

All said and done, only things found were high cholesterol, 2 large bone spurs on his neck, arthritis in the neck and crystal in the ears which were taken care of. Other than that, his Dr.s all think that he's crazy and needs anti depressants! His internists pulled out his little PDA and checked the half life of Lexapro and said that it should be out of his system in 36 hours so just stop taking them and then informed us that he thought we should find a new doctor with a fresh perspective because he's exhausted every route possible in my husband and there is nothing wrong with him including the Lexapro, that it could never cause all of these symptoms.

I truly believe that there should exist rehab facilities everywhere for people addicted to these drugs! They are far worse than the withdrawal from heroine! Doctors are not informed properly and neglect to investigate their patients claims about the effects of these medicines.

You guys are our last hope at this point. My husband really needs to know if anyone has been on as long as him and how long before they felt normal again. Sorry for writing a book my first time on here.

[Hopeful 285]

Back2health, Cold Turkey, Skorpio72, Aarondawg, and anyone else quitting cold turkey,

I have to tell you that I know first hand that this is very dangerous. Please listen to Aunty and everyone else that's warning you.
I quit cold turkey on November the 9th 2006 and am still healing.

December 4th, 2006. I was in the emergency room jerking, couldn't walk, and my blood pressure was 206/116. I had to use a cane off and on for months. I was falling and jerking so severely, I would pull my back out. If you quit a few days or even a week without side effects, don't think you are out of the water. You must protect yourself and taper slowly.

I have also developed a thyroid problem because of this medication.
I am doing a lot better than I was, but I still fall sometimes. My reflex at the back of my left knee gives out. I have vertigo. I get an ear ache in my left ear off and on. I have sensations in my brain 24/7. I have a movement disorder and my head jerks to the left and sometimes bobs. If I try to suppress it my eyes draw shut. This is different from the withdrawal zaps.
I would feel such despair, nothing like I had ever experienced. I still have some bad days. I wish someone had warned me not to quit suddenly.

These are only a few of my side effects.

I don't want to scare you, just confirming what everyone else that is trying to help you, is telling you.

Take care of yourselves.

Aunty,
I said some prayers for your daughter. I asked God to keep her safe and to help her to take her medications. I asked him also to help you with your exhaustion and concern about your daughter.

Elizabethmaria,
My heart broke for you when I heard about your day. Things will get better. I prayed for you today.

Hi Skyer,
I am thankful to see you're getting better, for everyone on this forum to see and for myself. I am looking forward to when we are 100 percent.
I read in one of Peter Breggin's books that he was on Oprah in 1994. On the web, it says 1987. I guess he said some negative stuff and someone tried to sue him.
I also read on the web that he was on 20/20, dateline and a few other shows.

My brother inlaw is taking Effexor and was on 60 mgs and his doctor raised it to 90 and he realized it was way to strong so he didn't take it. He asked the doctor to drop him to 30 mgs and the doctor told him no. He didn't offer to help him taper or anything. My brother-in-law is starting to get tremors. I warned him about it when he started taking it about 4 months ago and he wouldn't listen to me.

My mother-in-law who has been on Lexapro 3 years and then on