[mdg11]

Hi Robert

Do you think we should lower the dosage again tomorrow, Thursday?

All seems to be going fairly well. His pain is increasing in his back, which I expected and says he can tell his dose has been lowered.

Sickness again last night -he had a couple of beers, I believe that to be the problem last night.

Let me know what you think, or if we should wait until another day to lower the dose.

If we are lowering the dose to 3.375, how do I cut this up and what would the dosage be to give him in the am and pm?

I will check back in later tonight to confirm. I thank you so much for all of your assistance with this!

[Robert_325]

Being he's had a couple challenges these last couple days let's leave his dose alone for another two days. He will have worse problems if we drop him too soon. Keep me posted about today and tomorrow. God bless.

[mdg11]

Will do!

I received a message late this morning that he is feeling the best he has in awhile! That's great!

I'll check back in with you tomorrow later, evening and see if we should move forward by moving backwards
.

[Robert_325]

mdg11 ..... Assuming today proceeds as his message today indicated and tomorrow is a repeat you should go ahead and reduce again on Saturday to 3.375mg. Is that a crazy dose to divide in two or what??? LOL

There gets to be a point sometimes where it just makes sense to round this off to an easier dose to work with and then go from there. I would call it two 1.75mg doses. That will equal a total of 3.5mg for the day ... not much difference from 3.375mg and a LOT less hassle. It's a tiny bit less than a 25% reduction but we can catch up on the next reduction. He should have a relatively simple time this reduction with the more conservative approach.

Keep me posted about his progress. God bless.

[mdg11]

That sounds good! I'll drop him down on Saturday. That will be 6 days on the 4.5mg. We did 5 days on the 6mg, so I guess one more day at 4.5 won't hurt to make sure he's good and stable. We are actually going camping for the weekend, so I'm a little more comfortable dropping him saturday. that way if he does feel anything, he will feel it after the trip. 2-1.75mg doses. Got it. I made myself pill diagrams today so I could remember what I cut them into. Stressful being the one to administer!

I will tell ya, he's one ornery sob today -work; can't I give him a little "twing" of w/d so he can remember what it is we're doing here and to keep the attitude positive! Kind of like, take that you little s**t. I'm seriously teasing, I'd never do that. I do want him to get ALL better!

Not gonna be easy though. Breaks my heart that these prescribed drugs are so addictive and so many people are affected by them. I am certainly glad that I have found this website and am able to have your assistance with this.

I applause everyone on here that has beaten the evil demon of addiciton and stuck it out!

[mdg11]

Hello!

All is going well! We had a great weekend and absoutly no issues from the taper from what I can see or he has mentioned.

We dropped him to 3.5mg on Saturday. Today, Tuesday would be his 4th day on this dose. Tomorrow go ahead and lower him down to 2.5? I know it has been said to taper every 4-5 days. Should I have done this today rather than tomorrow?

Just checking in to make sure I'm still adminstering at the right levels and the right times.

Thank you Robert!!

[Robert_325]

Going to 2.5mg is a little more than 25% but I think he'll do fine there. Go ahead as planned. We need to watch and make sure he is doing great prior to reducing again. You guys are doing great. God bless.

[mdg11]

Great, thanks!

I believe the full 25% taper would be 2.625mg. How would I cut that up if we decided to keep him at that level rather than the 2.5?

Right now I am planning on lowering him down to 2.5 tomorrow and we'll see how it goes from there. I'll let you know in a few days.

By "doing great" before lowering again, is this why it can very the number of days they are on a dose? I guess I'm also wondering what kind of symptoms define not great, or what you may be looking for.

He had a little bit of a hard time sleeping Sunday night, this didn't seem to bother him. Monday he thought he felt nauseous during the day and then wondered if it was in his head.

[Robert_325]

That is correct. Sometimes it takes different amounts of time at different doses to be ready to reduce the dose again. I'm not looking for any problems at this point. There have been no indications to speak of that he should be expecting problems in my opinion. I would be referring to standard opiate w/d symptoms. He'll be fine. God bless.

[mdg11]

Hi Robert

So I reduced those dose to 2.5 yesterday. He told me today, yesterday and today he's been nausous w/ stomach pain and dizzy here and there.

I remember the very first time I lowered him that first day of the smaller dose he said he felt dizzy.

this is day 2 on 2.5mg. think he's ok -maybe give it another day? i asked him if he felt good prior to yesterday and he said pretty much, which i also thought.

He doesn't know that he was lowered yesterday. Based on converstations today, I believe he still thinks he is at the 4.5 dose.

thank you much!

[Robert_325]

I would ride it out one more day if he is able. If he feels badly enough tomorrow let me know. We won't let him suffer if he is still feeling badly.

We'll have him take a little sliver if he has to but we don't want to do that unless we absolutely have to. Stay in touch. God bless.

[mdg11]

Hi Robert

I received word today that he's still feeling not right. really sore legs, dizy and wicked stomach aches on and off.

I asked him to see how he felt tomorrow, saturday. Is that ok? with this being day 3 of the taper, I hate to see him take a sliver only to have to start over. He seemed ok (or he didn't complain saying he can't stand it) with waiting to see how he felt tomorrow and I also told him we would wait again until he felt good to taper.

After reading some of the posts on here I have seen the assocation with the sore legs and RLS. He is sleeping good, however last night I could feel his legs twitching, constantly. I can't find the original post of what to get that will help with this, is it Vitamin B-6, and L-Tyrosine? If so, what exactly does this do and how many mg's should he be taking of each? I don't really know much about them yet. He's currently taking a daily multi-vitamin as well.

[Robert_325]

He seems to be one of those people who struggle at day three then get better. It may be a good idea to stretch this reduction out to five days. Let's see if that one extra day makes the next reduction easier. It happens like that pretty often.

L-Tyrosine taken with vitamin B-6 helps. He can take the 500mg L-Tyrosine up to about 2000mg. Just increase it as needed. A really HOT shower before bed will help a little with that kicking/twitching too. Keep me posted. God bless.

[mdg11]

That sounds good. I will see how he does over the weekend, which I suspect, he will begin to do well.

To clarify by stretching the taper 5 days...he would next lower his dose on Sunday or on Monday? I may have confused myself with the days. He started this level of 2.5 on Wednesday -5 full days at this dose ends Sunday.

We will be camping Saturday - Monday, so I will need to get his stuff ready. Either on Sunday or Monday (whichever you tell me) when we lower his dose again by 25% I am getting 1.875mg (twice a day). How do I cut this? 2mg dosage seems much easier...but .125 might be too much of a difference.

Sorry for the confusion, and as always I greatly appreciate all of your help!

Molly

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mdg11

That sounds good. I will see how he does over the weekend, which I suspect, he will begin to do well.

To clarify by stretching the taper 5 days...he would next lower his dose on Sunday or on Monday? I may have confused myself with the days. He started this level of 2.5 on Wednesday -5 full days at this dose ends Sunday.

We will be camping Saturday - Monday, so I will need to get his stuff ready. Either on Sunday or Monday (whichever you tell me) when we lower his dose again by 25% I am getting 1.875mg (twice a day). How do I cut this? 2mg dosage seems much easier...but .125 might be too much of a difference.

Sorry for the confusion, and as always I greatly appreciate all of your help!

Molly

Molly ... if you guys are going camping this weekend just go have fun and wait until you get back to change his dose. An extra day may even make him feel a little better and help him blow through the next dose. It's good to be agressive, but also good to cut him a little slack too at times. I think this is a good time to have fun this weekend.

When we get down to 1.875mg doses I will just call that a little under 2mg and that's close enough. Try to keep this simple for yourself, but as accurate as reasonable. I would not want to cut a 1.875mg piece. Sounds like a big hassle to me. Cut 2mg and chip a little off. That's good enough.

Stay in touch. God bless.

[cuidoel]

Originally Posted by mdg11

Hello

I know this has probably already been asked, but can not specifically find the answer I am looking for.

My fiance will be starting suboxone on Monday or Tuesday. From what I understand and he has told me I guess he has been taking at least 120mg of oxy.

I know there are horror stories about suboxone and to not get on it, but with what I have read, it seems to be the best way to ween yourself off. I have printed off Robert's FAQ's as well as the suboxone therapy page.

This taper plan, from my understanding eliminates the w/d's if done properly. However when reading the FAQ w/d's will be experienced. Can anyone verify this? I have heard back and forth that it would be easier to taper off oxy than subs. I'm just concerned this is not the best option for him. I do know his biggest fear of w/d's is sleeping. But I have been under the impression w/d's are not experienced using Robert's taper plan.

any insight would be helpful!

Depending on where he is at on the suboxone...if he is on 8mgs or higher have him taper down to 2mgs as soon as humanly possible. It's just as effective at blocking cravings and keeping withdrawl symptoms away at 2mgs.

If he has been on the oxy's for a while, have him stay on 2mgs every 12hours or until he starts feeling the withdrawl symptoms, but perhaps not a good idea to let it get to that point which is why I suggest and recommend every 12 hours. The best thing to do is to get down to 2mgs as soon as humanly possile. Then break a 2mg pill in half. Continue with this 1mg dose for a few days. Meanwhile break up another 2mg into 4 parts, as equal as you can do. A pill cutter is advised, but sometimes they crubble, which is good (having some smaller pieces around is going to be good towards the end).

Considering you and him have at least 4 equal parts made from a 2mg pill, taper down to 1/4 of the 2mg pill, again as humanly possible. Then go to an 1/8 (the crumbled pieces from not making an equal cut from a 2mg pill as mentioned earlier). Once he gets down to that small of a dose, the withdrawls are mild to nothing. He could even do a 1/16 of a 2mg pill (a tiny piece) if he is not okay from the final dose of 1/8 of a 2mg pill. Make sure you are tapering down every few days. If he has to take a week between each tapered dose, then that's what he has to do. If he can get the same doctor to prescribe a low dose of valium (5mgs at most) or klonopin (0.25-0.5mgs) for some of the anxiety associated with tapering and his sleep problems, that would be ideal. I suggest these anti-anxiety meds because they are smoother to come off of than the others, in the event he gets physically dependent. If he doesn't abuse them, this is unlikely to happen and especially if it's just for sleep purposes. He will probably become more sexually aroused as he starts to feel again after being so numbed out by oxy and even to an extent, suboxone (in high doses), so encourage sex (safe, of course) because this not only is good exercise, but will release the natural drugs in his brain that have been suspended by the meds, which will make him feel much better. He can do it and bless you for standing by him. Best of everything.

[mdg11]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Molly ... if you guys are going camping this weekend just go have fun and wait until you get back to change his dose. An extra day may even make him feel a little better and help him blow through the next dose. It's good to be agressive, but also good to cut him a little slack too at times. I think this is a good time to have fun this weekend.

When we get down to 1.875mg doses I will just call that a little under 2mg and that's close enough. Try to keep this simple for yourself, but as accurate as reasonable. I would not want to cut a 1.875mg piece. Sounds like a big hassle to me. Cut 2mg and chip a little off. That's good enough.

Stay in touch. God bless.

Hi robert

if I give him a sliver....can you define sliver? and if we do this tonight, what do i do for his regular doses....stay with the 2.5 for a bit longer?

thank you.
i do not believe this afternoon went very well.

[Robert_325]

If he needs a sliver give him from .25-.5mg max. Then pick it up again as you normally would the next day.

Hope that isn't necessary but it isn't the end of the world either. He shouldn't have to suffer while doing subs.

I know that I'm not going to allow anyone to suffer if it isn't necessary. That's why we use subs. God bless.

[mdg11]

ok, I gave him a little chunk. I don't think it was more than .25mg. In one of my cutting experiences I pretty much demolished a 2mg pill, ended up somehow in 16 odly shapped pieces , so he got a piece of that.

He is playing in a rock show tonight, plays guitar, and the constant feeling of getting sick wasn't going to make for an alright night.

So that was that...dang. We'll pick it back to normal tomorrow at the 2.5 mg. I'll check back in after camping to see what our next plan will be. I'm anxious to get him at a comfortable level at 2mg for some reason and am hopeful that the .5 transition will be an easy one.

I read in another post you had written, it's not a race to the end -it takes time. I keep telling myself that.

thank you much!
Molly

[mdg11]

Hi Robert

All is going well. When should we lower to 2mg? he had been on 2.5 and had to take a sliver on friday. We thought a 5 day taper would work best for him, so is that 5 days again from saturday? not sure when to start that sort of stuff.

thank you so much

Also where do I get L-Lysine? I can't seem to find it anywhere to take witht he vit B6?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mdg11

Hi Robert

All is going well. When should we lower to 2mg? he had been on 2.5 and had to take a sliver on friday. We thought a 5 day taper would work best for him, so is that 5 days again from saturday? not sure when to start that sort of stuff.

thank you so much

Also where do I get L-Lysine? I can't seem to find it anywhere to take witht he vit B6?

It's not L-Lysine it's L-Tyrosine. You can get it at any walmart pharmacy, CVS, just about anywhere. Be sure to get vitamin B-6 with it as that helps the body with absorption.

Let's go ahead and reduce his dose to 2mg now. I think he'll do okay. He can always take a sliver if necessary but we have to be a little agressive to see how he will react to a stronger approach to the taper. Then we'll know.

At some point in the taper we have to see how strong he holds up to the reductions. Then we can make plans accordingly. Let me know how he reacts. God bless.

[Wearman]

Hello Robert

I hope this is the correct thread. I have been reading your advice about the induction on suboxone. I have a question that perhaps you can help me with or refer me, etc.

I have been on suboxone for 7 weeks. The induction went well (16 mg, b.i.d. for 2 days and then 8 mg b.i.d.) For the first 3 weeks all was great, 8 mg a day and the cravings went away. I had a long history of vicodin abuse, with several relapses. As such I was hearing from both my shrink and Primary that I could be on this forever (I am 39). At 3 weeks I started having moderate joint swelling and pain, the pain got worse but it is tolerable. Ibuprofen didn't help much, plus I was not to keen on taking another med. My fingers are now numb all the time (similar to frostbite) and my manual dexterity has been diminished. After talking to both Dr's we agreed I would stop taking it.

I am in a quandry as the stuff does a lot to reduce cravings, but I can't have athritic-like pain for the rest of my life. I have been gradually reducing the dose (down to 4 mg/day) but the pain is just as bad and the cravings are coming back. Yes, I am in AA so I can deal with the cravings (God Willing)

My question is (finally) have you ever heard of joint pain as a side effect and if so is it possible to go away? Its been here for 5 weeks now. Also, how many days do I need to taper off of 4 mg w/o having the lovely opiate w/d? Finally, would methadone be an option (my shrink will prescribe it) or am I just jumping out of the pan and into the fire. Everything I read says methadone is really hard to kick and I am not so keen on being addicted to anything, be it physical or psychological.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I am feeling rather hopeless lately as the pain is starting to wear on me (not the origin of my screen name :-)

Thank you in advance and I am sorry if this is in the wrong place.

David

[mdg11]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

It's not L-Lysine it's L-Tyrosine. You can get it at any walmart pharmacy, CVS, just about anywhere. Be sure to get vitamin B-6 with it as that helps the body with absorption.

Let's go ahead and reduce his dose to 2mg now. I think he'll do okay. He can always take a sliver if necessary but we have to be a little agressive to see how he will react to a stronger approach to the taper. Then we'll know.

At some point in the taper we have to see how strong he holds up to the reductions. Then we can make plans accordingly. Let me know how he reacts. God bless.

Great! We'll start the 2mg a day Tuesday. I think it will be fine as well. I finally went and got a pill box and with it came a fancy pill cutter! I'm excited to see how well it works -considering i am capable of destroying them unintentionally.

Thanks for the correct name of the L-Lysine. I went to three different stores and no one knew what I was talking about.

So take that with the basic B-6 vit -any mg suggestions, or maybe the B-6 complex?

Robert, you're the best! Thank you for all of your help!

Molly

[Robert_325]

Molly .. the B-6 is best. Also I wouldn't mess with a pill-cutter. You'll end up crushing the pills. They turn to powder so easily. Get a single-edged razor blade and you just kind of slice the pills with the razor. Do it easily and they will hold up fine. At least they always did for me.

Some people take a 2mg piece and crush it up completely. Divide into four .5mg piles and divide doses up like that. They pour it under their tongue from a piece of paper with a sharp crease. There are obviously lots of ways to do this. Main thing is the end result. Peace. God bless.

[mdg11]

Hi

Would a decrease cause intense pain in the sternum area, like just below the ribs where they meet?

he's experiencing this pain yesterday, which was the first day of lowering the dose. He's experienced this before and am thinking it was when we lowered the dose, but not certain -I am going to try to confirm this when he gets home.

any idea?

thanks!
Molly

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by mdg11

Hi

Would a decrease cause intense pain in the sternum area, like just below the ribs where they meet?

he's experiencing this pain yesterday, which was the first day of lowering the dose. He's experienced this before and am thinking it was when we lowered the dose, but not certain -I am going to try to confirm this when he gets home.

any idea?

thanks!
Molly

Molly .. I can't relate any past experience to pain in the sternum. Doesn't mean it isn't possible but I would probably call the dr if it persists. Let me know first and we'll figure out what to do. God bless.

[mdg11]

Hi Robert

After the last taper, you had thought a 5 day taper would work best. Today, Saturday, is day 5 at the dose of 2mg. We haven't had the best day yesterday. Unknown to me, he took extra. After I found out, from what I can tell, it was probably an extra .5mg

So now what do we do? He is out fishing tells me he feels like complete ********. Yesterday anxiety was high and believe it has been on and off periodically.

Would this extra .5 mg dose have screwed him up today? And what do we do next for his next taper?

Is this when it gets hard? Because I can feel it is at that point. He has back pain, which is why he said he took it. While we are going to the chiropractor to try and get that figured out, I am concerned about the remainder of his time tapering causing more struggle.

I started thinking about the possibility of going to a pain clinic, where they would give him a shot directly at the site of the pain. Would this be bad to do while on subs?

His dad has strong reservations that I am doing this too rapidly. he has been in touch with another girl who's doctor told her to stay on them for over a year, started her out at 16mg -got down to 10mg and couldn't hardly stand it. I have told my fiance over and over again the reprecusions of staying on them for a long period of time, causing a high dependancy. Can you shed any other insight that I could pass along as to why we do the short taper? After reading other posts, the taper must be done correctly which is what we are doing.

I don't know about that L-Tyrosine. i can't find it. I might go to a health store like GNC or something.

Frustrated today.
thank you
molly

[Robert_325]

When you say get a shot in the area of the pain I'm assuming you're talking about cortisone or a steroid. That could be something that had nothing to do with the subs. It would be impossible for me to tell at this point.

I think anyone wanting him to do this for a year is wrong. You know how I feel and you're doing right. It takes a little time to adjust sometimes. I wouldn't give up yet. God bless.

[mdg11]

Yes. on the shots, i wondered if it might interfere with subs.

While he says he feels like complete ********, I think waiting at least another day, maybe two for another taper is best. do you agree to wait to taper until monday or tuesday or do you suggest doing this sooner?


thanks!
molly

[Robert_325]

molly ..... shot or no shot the patient needs to score a 26 minimum on that COWS worksheet before induction. Nothing could be anymore inportant than that. Don't forget that worksheet no matter what. God bless.