[the pirate]

hi i have made threads before about coming off methadone.
i have been on methadone now for about 5 years , i am on 20ml now and my life over the last 6 months have just been turned upside down, i have had stomach pains, dizzyness, feeling very weak, cold hands, everyday i just feel ill its not normaly like me i work full time always have and used to be always outgoing and down for a laugh but just over the last 6 months i feel like a loner in my own horrible world. i have a girlfriend who is just brilliant to me she does not take drugs at all never has and totally supports me whatever i do .. without her i would not have been clean for almost 3 years

can someone tell me is this normal am i withdrawing because of being on it for a while and being on a low dose i feel ok in the morning when i wake but feel worse after taking the methadone. or is this just in my head ??

i have been told about subutex from my drug counciller but dont know what to do how would you go about this please will subutex be better or worse i need to come off methadone soon or i will end up having a breakdown i just cant handle life how it is feeling ill every day hope someone can help me please

[Robert_325]

You're at a low enough methadone dose where if you wanted to switch to subutex I would be happy to help with that. I've worked with LOTS of people switching from methadone.

You need to go without any medication of any kind until you're in severe w/d before doing the subutex induction. If you start too soon you'll go into precipitated w/d and you'll regret doing this at all. It normally takes about 72 hours with methadone before starting the subutex. Let me know if you need help. God bless.

[the pirate]

why is my drug counciller saying its 36 hours before a can use subutex ??

IS SUBUTEX BETTER THAN METHADONE AND WHAT WAY PLEASE

also do you think i will feel better , i just feel now when i take the methadone its making me feel worse i always have stomach problems now can methadone cause this and is there anything that can be done .. need more info on subutex though Robert as dont know nothing about it at all

[Robert_325]

Lots of people do better with subutex. It's certain worth a try if you're not doing well now. If you want to taper down and off the subutex I can help you with that.

Here is a link explaining how I always recommend using subutex. Read closely in the section about INDUCTION. Note the low dose that's recommended at induction. Also make special note of the COWS worksheet link. This is how you know when the time is right to begin induction. You have to score a 26 at least to be safe from precipitated w/d.

It usually takes closer to 72 hours than 36 coming off methadone. You may luck out but I promise 36 hours gets most people sick if they do it then. That's a fact.

Read the link and it should answer lots of your questions. God bless.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

[the pirate]

thanks for the info mate . . i think i might try Subutex is it good to start now being on 20ml and what dose do you think they should start me on ??

[Robert_325]

If you follow the COWS worksheet from the aforementioned link you will see how to know when you're ready to begin. You need to take 2mg doses an hour apart during the induction. I will help you with the induction and make sure you're doing it properly if you need my help. Don't start too soon coming off the methadone or you'll regret it. And I would be surprised if it takes you any more than 6mg if you do the induction properly. God bless.

[methadonede]

The difficulty you are experiencing is nothing more than withdrawal. This because you are likely reducing your methadone dose too quickly and not giving your body time to acclimate at each new dosage level. There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Done correctly a patient will not experience the troubles you express. A reduction schedule of one milligram every 10 to 14 days is suggested by those versed in the specialty. It takes a long time, but there is no suffering or reawakening of the addiction monster. If you are reducing at a greater rate than this, that would explain your suffering.

You may want to consider raising your dose to a level that you are comfortable at and begin the process again correctly. You also should examine your reasons for doing this in the first place. No comment can be made on your motivations as too little information has been given.

Lastly, beware of those pretending medical knowledge without the requisite background. Before offering assistence, competent counsel would ask where it is you are located before offering any guidance on suboxone. Please be careful in this respect.
Kind regards,
J.R. Neuberger
National Alliance for Medication Assisted Recovery

Originally Posted by the pirate

hi i have made threads before about coming off methadone.
i have been on methadone now for about 5 years , i am on 20ml now and my life over the last 6 months have just been turned upside down, i have had stomach pains, dizzyness, feeling very weak, cold hands, everyday i just feel ill its not normaly like me i work full time always have and used to be always outgoing and down for a laugh but just over the last 6 months i feel like a loner in my own horrible world. i have a girlfriend who is just brilliant to me she does not take drugs at all never has and totally supports me whatever i do .. without her i would not have been clean for almost 3 years

can someone tell me is this normal am i withdrawing because of being on it for a while and being on a low dose i feel ok in the morning when i wake but feel worse after taking the methadone. or is this just in my head ??

i have been told about subutex from my drug counciller but dont know what to do how would you go about this please will subutex be better or worse i need to come off methadone soon or i will end up having a breakdown i just cant handle life how it is feeling ill every day hope someone can help me please

[methadonfriendly826]

Originally Posted by Robert_325

Lots of people do better with subutex. It's certain worth a try if you're not doing well now. If you want to taper down and off the subutex I can help you with that.

Here is a link explaining how I always recommend using subutex. Read closely in the section about INDUCTION. Note the low dose that's recommended at induction. Also make special note of the COWS worksheet link. This is how you know when the time is right to begin induction. You have to score a 26 at least to be safe from precipitated w/d.

It usually takes closer to 72 hours than 36 coming off methadone. You may luck out but I promise 36 hours gets most people sick if they do it then. That's a fact.

Read the link and it should answer lots of your questions. God bless.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...apy-50887.html

You only need to wait 36hrs. There is no need to be in w/d for 72 hrs. Trust me i did it before. Can i ask a question. Why did you start methadone in the first place?

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by methadonfriendly826

You only need to wait 36hrs. There is no need to be in w/d for 72 hrs. Trust me i did it before. Can i ask a question. Why did you start methadone in the first place?

methadonefriendly ..... Yes and you are ONE person. I've seen hundreds of people switch from methadone to suboxone/subutex and 36 usually does NOT work. You don't know what is best for everyone because of one experience with yourself. How will you feel if you put someone into precipitated w/d because you told them the wrong information?



Pirate .... you can do this however you like but if you are like most people and you switch at 36 hours you'll get sick as hell. Do as you choose. I would use the COWS worksheet as the guide to know when to begin the induction. God bless.

[stw66]

I Quit methadone 7 months ago.I was on it for 8 years and I slowly took myself down until I was at a comfortable level to stop.It was not easy by any means.But like you I have a very caring and understanding wife who put up with alot,she too has never used.
After I quit it was hard,But I was able to eat and go to work.I drank alot of fluids,took vitamins,and as much as I hated it, I excercised.Your symptoms will subside and you will get better.It just sucks having to wait to get better.
But I can assure you that life is so much better being off that liquid chain.
Take care,I will check back to see how things are going...

[intelmetal]

BEWARE of the people out there who have attended school for many years, and would allow an innocent HUMAN BEING get addicted, and keep that person addicted for their own selfish greed ! A person who has lived with addiction issues for decades has much wisdom to offer, and they are not asking you to dig deep into your pocketbook for their help ( sharing an experience ). So you should consider ones motivations before following anybody's instructions. I bet that $ 100,000.00 car, parked in the driveway of that $ 2,000.000.00 Mansion has pretty big payments, and the owner of such car "might" need to keep a few patients addicted to opiates in order to make the payments. Patient Beware !!!
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free ! ( of drugs and crooked doctors )

P.S. Most doctors are very decent people. The evil ones know who they are.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by intelmetal

BEWARE of the people out there who have attended school for many years, and would allow an innocent HUMAN BEING get addicted, and keep that person addicted for their own selfish greed ! A person who has lived with addiction issues for decades has much wisdom to offer, and they are not asking you to dig deep into your pocketbook for their help ( sharing an experience ). So you should consider ones motivations before following anybody's instructions. I bet that $ 100,000.00 car, parked in the driveway of that $ 2,000.000.00 Mansion has pretty big payments, and the owner of such car "might" need to keep a few patients addicted to opiates in order to make the payments. Patient Beware !!!
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free ! ( of drugs and crooked doctors )

P.S. Most doctors are very decent people. The evil ones know who they are.

Damn dude! You mean you don't believe everything you're told by the medical profession?

I agree that most drs are good people. In fact even my old subutex dr is a great dr. I still talk with him, he's even been on this forum, just hasn't posted. But he even uses some of the suggestions from here himself for patients and he's chief of staff at a huge pysch hospital. His ego is NOT so big that he won't listen. Some drs will listen to experience.

Some people get any type of initials to put at the end of their name and they are sure they know everything. God bless.

[intelmetal]

Robert, I just don't know anymore. Some doctors are awesome and do some amazing things. Some will actually listen to their patients and gain some " REAL WORLD " knowledge, kind of like when a teacher learns something from one of their students. It is a good thing for physicians to be open minded and not be judgmental when a patient gives them feedback. If they would just listen w/ an open mind, they would be continuing their own education which in turn would benefit future patients. I personally think that doctors all to often write scripts to move a patient out of their office or E.R., so that they can keep the production line going and also to not feel powerless when someone complains of pain or stress or whatever. It is so easy for them to pull out the old pad & pen to make the patient feel like they got something for their money. The sad part is that the patient does not have a clue as to what might happen once they fill their script. One day they may require more education for medical students and current doctors of the horrors of ADDICTION !!!
Thanks,Robert and God Bless You !
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[the pirate]

Originally Posted by methadonede

The difficulty you are experiencing is nothing more than withdrawal. This because you are likely reducing your methadone dose too quickly and not giving your body time to acclimate at each new dosage level. There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Done correctly a patient will not experience the troubles you express. A reduction schedule of one milligram every 10 to 14 days is suggested by those versed in the specialty. It takes a long time, but there is no suffering or reawakening of the addiction monster. If you are reducing at a greater rate than this, that would explain your suffering.

You may want to consider raising your dose to a level that you are comfortable at and begin the process again correctly. You also should examine your reasons for doing this in the first place. No comment can be made on your motivations as too little information has been given.

Lastly, beware of those pretending medical knowledge without the requisite background. Before offering assistence, competent counsel would ask where it is you are located before offering any guidance on suboxone. Please be careful in this respect.
Kind regards,
J.R. Neuberger
National Alliance for Medication Assisted Recovery

thankyou for your response .. so do you think i am W/D ?? i started coming down 2-3 ml every 2 weeks as advised then i got down to 12ml and all went pear shaped i started feeling very ill for about 2 weeks then went to see doctor again and he said ill put you back up to 20ml but still nothing i have been feeling good then bad for almost 6 months i have had stomach problems cant eat more than 1 meal a day and i always used to snack all the time . i have lost a bit of weight and just not feeling good . i have had various tests on my bowles and stomach for pain and not eating but nothing has come back i have been for thairoid tests but again nothing .. i just feel cold all the time really light headed as though i am going to pass out and i have become very very moody and its not like me . i need this sorting but dont know what to do if i know that i am deffinetly W/D then how much can i go up again to get stable ?? i really need as much help as you lot can give me some days i feel as though i am on deaths door . and my girlfriend has always said to me is it your methadone not working and i told her it cant be , and all along it just might be a too low dose for me to handle god i need to get this sorted as i miss all the good times we used to have going away and going out for meals and drinks i love my girlfriend so much and feel i am causing her pain and need this sorting how much can i go back up i need my life back please help i am going to doctors tomorrow to sort this

[the pirate]

methadonede

can you please get in touch i need more information please

[intelmetal]

Are you really that blind ? You have all the information in the world at your fingertips right here on this forum. The people here have centuries of combined experience with this issue. I would read at least 200 -300 post about getting clean right here. You do not need the opinion of " ONE SO CALLED EXPERT ", to find the answers. Most doctors have book smarts, but lack the actual feelings of what you are going through. Most of the members here are experts one recovery and relapse. I would ask questions to all on this site for advise and support. We are willing to share our experiences with you, and help you for free. JUST ASK ! I have 11 years of opiate dependence, and have tapered without any help whatsoever from doctors. I was taking 360mg methadone per day for years and tapered down to 20mg per day on my own. I then switched to suboxone ( Doctor said I should take 16mg per day, I said no way, ask for 8mg to start. Have tapered down to 1mg suboxone in 6 weeks, and should be done in a couple of weeks ) I'll let you know anything you want to know about my experience to date. I have not had any major issues yet, and do not think I will have any. It is not as bad as you would think, only minor discomfort. Take it from the real pro's, the people who have had the misfortune of opiate WD's. Your friends here on this forum that do not want your money. Think about ones motivation
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[the pirate]

no i am not blind .. yet lol

all i wanted to know was do i need to go back up or should i switch over to the subutex i have had no experience in subutex and would like to know more from other users or as i said should i go back up a few ml and get steady as i have been feeling ill for about 6 months .. going to doctors this morning will let you know what has been said


forget that i have just rung doctors and my drug counciller is not there today but back monday .. great what a big help that is to me

[Robert_325]

If you decide to switch to subutex you would actually stop the methadone entirely until you were ready to be inducted with the subutex. You have to be in severe w/d prior to beginning just like I explained in the subutex therapy link I gave you in the earlier post. You proceed forward with the subutex induction according to the COWS worksheet instructions.

If you want help from those with experience this is the way to do it. If you choose to chase around the "professionals" who are leaving you feeling like you do now there isn't too much we can do to help you. Let us know what route you choose. Good luck and God bless.

[intelmetal]

Pirate, I am sorry if I sounded too critical of doctors in my recent post. I just want you to succeed. These drugs, mainly methadone have caused me much misery over the years and I hate to see people suffer. If I could share my experience with you, it might help you out. I slowly tapered down my methadone dose over a long period of time. I have so much knowledge on tapering methadone down to 20mgs, and want to help anyone who is having trouble getting to that dose. ( Hint: Only take your methadone dose once every 24 hours ) I have friends that take it in the morning, and need a little bump as they call it in the evening to feel good. I stress that it is important to only dose once every 24 hours. How much are you taking right now ? For how long ? Give me a little history over the past 6 months. I will try and help you if I can. I really hope you can eventually switch to subs and begin tapering the way Robert has suggested. I wish you the best of luck ! Keep posting !
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[the pirate]

i started on 70ml quite a few years ago and started tapering down and to cut a long story short i started using again so back up i went stupid i know ... when i got stable again i started reducing 2ml every 2 weeks all went fine till i hit 12ml then thats when my life went wrong i started feeling very ill dizzyness aching cold all the time that went on for a month then i went back up to 20ml as advised but nothing has changed i have been feeling unwell since nov 08 some days are good some bad mostly bad i have changed my temper and have has stomach trouble i have has ct scans on the lower part of the stomach but nothing i can only eat maybe 1 meal a day as i feel full all the time and my stomach feels as though the food is not digesting properly have you had this on your reduction ?? anyway i am on 20ml now but dont know what to do for the best if i go back up to get stable again will it do me harm ? i need all the help i can get as this is ruining my life i have never been so grumpy and moody in all my life i just feel i am taking it out on everyone close to me .. i work full time and have had a few days off cos i feel dizzy at work and the problem with my stomach is worrying me a lot . i just dont know what to do . i thought when i went back upto 20ml i would be ok but nothing has changed at all , as i said this is ruining my life i wake up thinking am i going to be ok today ..then after a while feel like ******** and think god i cant handle this much more ...

[intelmetal]

Pirate, your story is almost exactly the same as my story. I got down to 10mgs and thought I was dying. I had no choice but to go back up to 20mgs. I had digestion problems like you would not believe. I even had the cat scan and a colonostipy (wrong spelling) which I only did out of desperation. I lost a lot of weight tapering and felt horrible. I decided I could no longer live that way and switched over to subs, best thing I have ever done. I no longer have any issues with my stomach or bowels and I feel so much better in every way. It is not a cakewalk tapering, but compared to the way I was feeling WOW ! I urge you to try subs to taper off all opiates, it's not that bad, only mild discomfort. I have been on subs for approx. 6 weeks and some change, and I am now down to 1mg sub per day and feel pretty good. I go to work without any problem, I exersize daily, take vitamins and minerals, eat right, etc. You need to just make the switch and stay w/ it. Robert is here to help too. Listen to him and stay with us, you will get better if you keep trying. Talk to you later.
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[willieboy35]

You are better off taking Suboxone....same as subutex but has an ingredient in it that prevents u from snorting it.....it works....it's a miracle drug but can be abused to an extent too....withdrawal is tough but it's the best option out there from a veteran stand point.....good luck

[the pirate]

Originally Posted by intelmetal

Pirate, your story is almost exactly the same as my story. I got down to 10mgs and thought I was dying. I had no choice but to go back up to 20mgs. I had digestion problems like you would not believe. I even had the cat scan and a colonostipy (wrong spelling) which I only did out of desperation. I lost a lot of weight tapering and felt horrible. I decided I could no longer live that way and switched over to subs, best thing I have ever done. I no longer have any issues with my stomach or bowels and I feel so much better in every way. It is not a cakewalk tapering, but compared to the way I was feeling WOW ! I urge you to try subs to taper off all opiates, it's not that bad, only mild discomfort. I have been on subs for approx. 6 weeks and some change, and I am now down to 1mg sub per day and feel pretty good. I go to work without any problem, I exersize daily, take vitamins and minerals, eat right, etc. You need to just make the switch and stay w/ it. Robert is here to help too. Listen to him and stay with us, you will get better if you keep trying. Talk to you later.
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

wow did not know you felt like it too mate ... did they find out with your stomach mate ??? also how much subutex do you think i will need to be stable i dont want them giving me too much . and once i swop over to the subs is it better to reduce from them from then methadone ? i dont know anyone on subs as i am free from all the drug scene thank god
so if i was on 12ml and went upto 20ml and nothing changed do you think the subs will work better ? i have been back on 20ml for about 7 months now finally i think i am getting some help and not from my counciller she is so nice but very young only about 27 and she has no experience i dont think . but when i change to subs it will be a new doctor as mine dont do subs . at the minute i am taking all my methadone out in 1 dose as i have been clean a long while so they allow me to take out i live in the uk and i think i have to go everyday to a clinic to take subs i cant take them out but not bothered about that if they make me feel better then i will do anything
thanks for your help intelmentel please stay in touch need more feedback mate so your stomach is fine now you switched wiered

[intelmetal]

Pirate, I was told that my stomach was having a negative reaction to the methadone. I already new that, but had to hear it from my GI doctor for it to register, can you believe that ? I had been on methadone for 7+ years and had problems w/ constipation the whole time, even had fissures (OUCH) !! I think you should follow Robert's INDUCTION schedule, but here is my story. I took my last dose of methadone 20mgs May 2, 2009 10:00 a.m., then waited 52 hours to let moderate WD's set in. It is VERY important that you are experiencing WD's before taking any sub ! On May 4 2009 2:00 p.m. I took my 1st dose of 8mgs and felt better within the hour. LISTEN CLOSELY ! I had told my doctor that I only wanted 8mgs per day and did not mention taper plans. The next morning I started to panic a little and called the doctor @ 10:00 a.m. She was not in,so I left a message for her to call me ( I thought that I needed more than 8mgs ) Her assistant called back 3 hours later to check on me. By then I was feeling fine and told her that I just wanted to tell the doctor that everything was O.K. lol. You see, my friend, subs have a way of playing tricks on your brain at first, you will likely feel what we call " Dead Man's Curve". Early in treatment you might feel this strange drop in energy about 3-4 hours after dosing. Don't panic, it goes away and you start to feel much better in a couple of hours. This only happens during the 1st 1-2 weeks after starting subs. Do not let any of this bother you, it is more mental than anything. You. The 2nd day I took 8mgs, 3rd day 8mgs, 4th day 6mgs, 5th day 6 mgs,then for the next 4 days, I took 4.5mgs, then 4 days @ 3.5mgs, then 4 days @ 2.5mgs, then 4 days @ 2mgs. Everything went fine for me all the way down to 2mgs, then it gets a little harder tapering, but totally doable. I am taking 1 mg per day and feel pretty good ( much better than 20mgs methadone ) Make the switch Pirate, its worth it ! You should feel more normal when you finally get stable. It's pretty quick and painless to make the switch. Hope this helped, and Good Luck mate !
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[the pirate]

thanks mate for that info well i think this is what i need to do then go on the subutex after being on methadone for a few years its going to be wiered but if it is going to help me feel better and get clean faster without W/D symptoms then great i will ring for an appointment monday to get the ball rolling thanks you have been a great help keep in touch mate

and as for your stomach mate . does it feel better ? i feel ok in the morning when getting up but after taking my methadone feel worse its mad i just guess the 20ml is doing nothing for me now cos i have been on it so long

thanks for your story also how long will it be before you are off the subs totally mate ?? and well done
fissures ?? just read up on this ouch mate

[intelmetal]

Pirate, my stomach is near 100% now, it's just amazing how much difference the subs made. Just give them an honest chance to work before you make any conclusions. It may take a week to feel better, but it will be HUGE, I promise. As far as feeling like your dying, that will change as well. Subs have a ceiling affect so you won't get too high, but you will feel 100% better. More clarity, you will have your sanity back, and you might gain a little weight. I needed to gain or at least maintain weight. I hope you can get enough meds to make a difference, as I heard it is hard to get the 8mg subs in U.K. You will be happy and alive soon ! I know exactly how you are feeling because your symptoms were the same as mine. I way 125 lbs and 5'7" tall, very thin but all muscle and I could use some weight gain. You sound like you want some improvement in your life and this is a perfect start. Let me know how it goes my friend. I know if you give it your best effort, you will be amazed at the way you are going to feel. I should be done in about 1 month.
IWANTOUT

to live my life and to be free !

[the pirate]

rang my gp and got an appointment but my counciller is not there again i cant believe it she is never there .she is at a meeting again ... great ! and you say its hard to get 8mg subs in the uk ? will have to speak to them and see what they give going to make a few phone calls now intelmetal speak soon i just need to get the ball rolling

[Robert_325]

Suboxone is definitely available in the UK and Europe. Check out this link.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/53606.php

I helped a guy from France do his suboxone induction the other day. He was using a very small sub pill, it was only .4mg. I inducted him on 1.2mg which is great. If you can get the subs in any dose I can help you get off on a good start. Let me know if you need help. God bless.

[the pirate]

right guys been speaking to my counciller she is going to refer me to another office to start the subs in the next week she has told me that a lot of her patients have switched to the subutex or subuxone and there was one guy there who was on methadone for 7 years tapered down to 20ml then did the switch to subutex and took him 5 weeks with there plan now he is clean is that to quick ? anyway i am waiting for an appointment with them and will see what they say but with our clinics you are not allowed to take the subs out you have to go every day and take it and do there taper plan as we dont have to pay for them here in the uk ... but if thats what i have to do then fine anyway i dont know what they will be starting me on so what would you .. robert and intelmetal suggest i know i have to take what they give but was just wondering before i go .. cos if that guy did it in 5 weeks it must be a low dose ..

[Robert_325]

There are drs who do this the same we do it. You should check it out and see how the dr says to use subs. If it's that short term I don't see how they could put you on too high a dose.

I helped a guy from France do his induction a week or two ago. The drs use .4mg sub pills there. We did his induction at 1.2 mg. Let us know what happens. Good luck and God bless.