[Kris-Lin]

What are some symptoms for Depression? How would medicine help?

Kris

[jmf]

there are many forms of depression-ranging from apathy to suicide. if you think you are depressed please talk to a doctor. depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain, not something that you can "just snap out of" it takes awhile to get the correct medicine and dosage, but it is well worth the effort. good luck

[Miles]

Kris-Lin:

Please do not buy into the allegation that depression is a "chemical imbalance in the brain." This simply is not true. There are no objective diagnostic tests to confirm or disconfirm the diagnosis of depression; the diagnosis can and must be made solely on the basis of the patient’s appearance and behavior and the reports of others about his behavior.

There is no blood or other biological test to ascertain the presence or absence of a mental illness, as there is for most bodily diseases. If such a test were developed (for what, theretofore, had been considered a psychiatric illness), then the condition would cease to be a mental illness and would be classified, instead, as a symptom of a bodily disease. If schizophrenia, for example, turns out to have a biochemical cause and cure, schizophrenia would no longer be one of the diseases for which a person would be involuntarily committed to a mental "hospital." In fact, it would then be treated by neurologists, and psychiatrists then have no more to do with it than they do with Glioblastoma [malignant tumor], Parkinsonism, and other diseases of the brain.

Society labels problems of living as “mental illness” so that personal responsibility can be circumvented and because human beings feel more at ease with that which they can categorize and explain. The labeling of “mental illness” is an heir to religious myths such as demon possession and witchcraft which were formerly used in the Middle Ages to explain unpleasant social and interpersonal interactions between an individual and the rest of society.

The belief in mental illness as a disease of the brain is a negation of the distinction between persons as social beings and bodies as physical objects. There is something positively bizarre about the modern, reductionist denial of persons. There is reflected in the widespread acceptance of unproven claims of physical causes of mental illness.

Literalising the metaphor of mental illness by suggesting that it has a physical basis serves as the justification for psychiatric interventions and institutions. To deny that mental illness is a physical disease may therefore be seen as dangerous as it seems to undermine this practice. For example, failure of a physician to prescribe antidepressants for depression has been seen as a disciplinary offense.

Regarding mental illness as an illusion does not deny the reality of the behaviors to which the term points. Belief in mental illness as a disease of the brain is a negation of the distinction between persons as social beings and bodies as physical objects. There is something positively bizarre about the modern, reductionist denial of persons. This is reflected in the widespread acceptance of unproven claims of physical causes of mental illness.

As Thomas Szasz states, "Formerly, people rushed to embrace totalitarian states. Now they rush to embrace the therapeutic state. When they discover that the therapeutic state is about tyranny, not therapy, it will be too late."

[xenabler]

Plese diseguard uneducated and certainly unapathetic replies as Miles. People who have never suffered from a mental illness cannot begin to fathom its debilitating impact, and no amount of logic can cure it. Mental illnesses are indeed an enigma, and science is still somewhat baffled by a cure, however, treatment by doctors doing their best is better than no treatment at all. The symptoms of clinical depression are very clear, even though their chemistry isnot. They include loss ofappetite, or eating continuously, severe insomnia or oversleeping. A general bleak outlook with no apparent end to the tunnel, suicidal thoughts although not necessary are common, withdrawl from life, loss of enjoyment from activites previously enjoyed, feeling lazy and wothless with no ability to push through it. Seek help most importantly from someone else who HAS BEEN THERE degree or not. Drugs are questionable, because science is still trying things out. Go to depressionhurts.org (Ithink, google it for exact add.) Check out other depression sites and research thorougly as a fellow sufferer will do you more good then a doctor who has only vague textbook knowledge. It is REAL and it will consume if not take your life. Talk to AA. They are frequently sufferers, thats why they took up the bottle, self medication. And trust me, thats throwing fuel on a fire. Stay away from pot and other recreational drugs, they will magnify it. Good luck.

[Miles]

Xenabler:

"Uneducated?" Hardly - I have forgotten more about the study of so-called mental illnesses than you will ever comprehend.

"Unapathetic?" What the heck does that mean?

"...treatment by doctors doing their best is better than no treatment at all." Are you sure? Why should one call on a doctor for problems in daily living? You seem way too willing to label every aspect of the human condition as some sort of illness of the mind/brain. Does that make you feel better? Does it comfort you to attribute your struggles to some disorder in your head? If so, you deserve what you receive.

Miles

[needtoknow7896]

kris-

bottom line-depression is REAL. and medication can help you. there is a difference is being truly depressed and being a bit down. talk with a doctor and do it soon. if you are a candidate for medication, you will be happy that you did it now rather than waiting for symptoms to worsen. and remember there is nothing wrong with you. poeple fight depression everyday. there are great medications out there, and they WORK. medication usage is indefinite........live in the now and get help. for depression i would suggest paxil, but only if you are at least 20 years old.

chemical imbalances are real. our bodies are exposed to so many different things through our environment to the foods we consume. our body chemistry is different from what is was 100 years ago. and as time goes on it will continue to change.

get help now. i wish you the best.

[Miles]

The hypothetical disturbances of neurochemical function that are said to underlie "mental illness" are just that: hypothetical. No experiment has ever shown that anyone has an "imbalance" of any neurotransmitters or any other brain chemicals. Nor could any conceivable experiment demonstrate the existence of a "chemical imbalance," simply because no one, least of all the biopsychiatrists, has the slightest idea what a proper and healthy chemical "balance" would look like. This is an extremely important to keep in mind. The hypothetical neuropathology lies at so fine a level – the molecular level – that, even if it did exist, its status as "pathology" would be profoundly unclear. Far more questions would be raised by such results than would be settled.

Biopsychiatrists hunt for physiological differences between the "mentally ill" and the "normal" to support their contention that subtle neuropathologies underlie "mental illness." This is a very odd idea given the history of psychiatry: the psychiatrist was the final "dumping ground" for people who came to a physician with a complaint, or a set of complaints, for which no basis could be found despite the best efforts of a whole gamut of consultants and specialists. Many of these people were eager to 'assume the patient role,' and the psychiatrist gave them the opportunity to do that. Others were essentially impossible to communicate with at all; for such people, the insane asylum performed exactly the function its name suggests: it gave them a place, free from the difficulties of reality, where they could simply wait out their lives. So psychiatry performed several social functions, but no one – not psychiatrist, patient, or onlooker – suggested that the diagnosis and treatment of "mental illness" was one of those functions. Indeed, even today, the first step in the "diagnosis" of any "mental illness" is to rule out any organic or medical explanation for the observed symptomology. Nevertheless, the quest for a chemical cause, and a chemical solution, to the problem of people being "poorly adjusted" continues.

In contemporary culture, it is not uncommon for someone to return from a visit to the doctor with a prescription for an "antidepressant" drug and the notion that the doctor has diagnosed some kind of "chemical imbalance" in the extremely delicate process of neurotransmitter metabolism and release. Medical diagnoses are generally backed up by empirical facts: infection may be diagnosed when the patient has a fever and a high white blood cell count. Hyperthyroidism may be diagnosed by measuring circulating levels of thyroid hormones. Heart disease may be diagnosed by angioscopic visualization. How are the chemical imbalances which are the supposed basis for the prescription of "antidepressants" diagnosed? Is exploratory neurosurgery performed, using some technique that allows the surgeon to quantify synaptic transmitter levels? No, the very idea is absurd. Is a spinal tap, then, done to at least measure, on a gross scale, the distribution of neurotransmitter metabolites? Of course not – how many people have undergone spinal taps before receiving a prescription for Effexor®? Is blood at least drawn, to test something? No. This diagnosis – the diagnosis of the most subtle of chemical disorders in the most complex organ in the body – is made on the basis of the patient's report of feeling sad and lethargic.

Try to imagine a hematologist diagnosing leukemia this way to get a sense of just how ridiculous this idea is. The latest edition of one pharmacology text has this to say about the status of depression as a disease: "Despite extensive efforts, attempts to document the metabolic changes in human subjects predicted by these [biological] hypotheses have not, on balance, provided consistent or compelling corroboration." This is a long-winded way of admitting that not even a scrap of evidence supports the idea that depression results from a "chemical imbalance." Yet patients are told every day – by their doctors, by the media, and by drug company advertising – that it is a proven scientific fact that depression has a known biochemical origin.

It follows directly that millions of Americans are being lied to by their doctors; and people surely cannot give informed consent for drug treatment when what they are being "informed" by is a fraud. These facts should have enormous social consequences, yet, for reasons that are unclear, they have no social or legal effects at all.

To sum up: there is no evidence whatsoever to support the view that "mental illness" is biochemical in origin; in other words, things like "Unipolar Disorder" and "Attention Deficit Disorder" simply do not exist. Even if there were such evidence of the existence of these things, how could one fail to notice that doctors do not test for anything at all in making the diagnosis of "clinical depression" or any other "mental illness?" The principal difference between medical and psychiatric diseases is this: medical diseases are discovered, generally through scientific research. But psychiatric "diseases" are invented – that is, they are fabricated out of thin air by committees.

Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles-

it has to be exhausting regurgitating all that textbook knowledge. living is the best tool of wisdom and knowledge. one shouldnt speak of what they have never experienced. nothing personal miles.

[Miles]

needtoknow7896:

Not really! It's all about personal responsibility... and freedom from the Therapeutic State.

[u]Bottom line</u>: It's a matter of determining who has control over one's body - the State or the individual. It is enough to acknowledge who defines what and controls whom. For example, in the typical case of bodily illness, say myocardial infarction, the subject identifies himself as suffering from an illness and so does his physician; whereas in the typical case of mental illness, say schizophrenia, the psychiatrist identifies the subject as ill but the subject does not identify himself as ill. Therein lies the difficulty in treating those who are said to have a mental illness. If one is suffering from symptoms but is not convinced that it is mental illness, or even if one does believe there is a possibility of mental illness, if one does not want to be treated for it, who has the power to decide otherwise? Should anyone have that power over another person?

I suggest that the brain chemistry imbalance hypothesis and its general adoption by the psychiatric community owes more to the rationale it provides for neuroleptic drug treatment than to its founding in scientific evidence. The idea that an association of medical doctors would intentionally treat patients with medication for financial gain while not acknowledging the lack of biological proof of illness is reprehensible. If psychiatrists know that anti-psychotic medication does not effectively treat supposed mental illnesses, but instead serves as a method of settling the patient down and making him/her conform to societal standards of behavior, then an enormous violation of human rights is being carried out in hospitals around the world.

Most if not all psychiatric drugs are neurotoxic, producing a greater or lesser degree of generalized neurological disability. So they do stop disliked behavior and may mentally disable a person enough he can no longer feel angry or unhappy or "depressed." But calling this a "cure" is absurd. The way in which neuroleptic drugs, or anti-psychotics, "treat" supposed mental patients needs to be examined in greater detail. This needs to be done to bring the debate into focus. These drugs are used to moderate the seemingly irrational behavior associated with "diseases" such as schizophrenia and manic depression. In fact, more than 90 percent of hospitalized patients with a diagnosis of schizophrenia are prescribed neuroleptic drugs.

These drugs heavily sedate the patient, by blocking dopamine receptors in the brain. Promoters of the chemical imbalance theory tend to think that if dopamine blockers can moderate the patient's irrational behavior, then schizophrenia and other such "diseases" must have at their root the hyperactivity of dopamine in the brain or the production of excess dopamine. It is important to note that this is only an assumption. It is a very risky assumption, in the least, as the consumption of neuroleptics over a prolonged period can lead to many debilitating problems.

Possible side effects to anti-psychotic medication include insomnia, restlessness, anxiety, euphoria, agitation, drowsiness, depression, lethargy, headache, confusion, vertigo, grand mal seizures, and provocation of psychotic symptoms including hallucinations and catatonic-like behavior states. It is difficult to see from this list of possible side effects how anti-psychotic medication actually can be said to help the patient with the said symptoms of mental illness, since while the medication might dull certain symptoms, it may cause a new set of symptoms.

The designation disease can only be justified when the cause can be related to a demonstrable anatomical lesion, infection, or some other physiological defect. As there is no such evidence for any mental disorder, the term disease is a misnomer; in fact, it is fraudulent.

Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles-

lets move on...........i would like to know your thoughts on anxiety.

[Miles]

needtoknow7896:

Biopsychiatrists come from the premise that neurological mechanisms control behavior. There’s the rub. It is the fashion to believe that behavior is the product of brain activity, and that is the dominant message the Therapeutic State delivers.

Biopsychiatrists argue that the thoughts and emotions that seem to color our reality are the result of complex electrochemical interactions within and between nerve cells… i.e., the mind is like the rest of the body. This is pure scientific and philosophical tommyrot. The “mind” is a metaphor for our internal conversations about our surroundings and ourselves that each of us conducts throughout our lives. Of course, thoughts and emotions require electrochemical processes (we are not ghosts are we?), but to reduce them to such processes is to make robots out of persons. I laugh at a funny experience, not at a funny electrochemical interaction. All the positron-emission tomography, functional magnetic resonance, and magneto-encephalography in the world cannot refute that.

It is natural to feel anxious when we doubt that we have the ability to deal with the situation confronting us, but in psychiatry’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) of Mental Disorders such anxiety is considered to be Generalized Anxiety Disorder or Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified. We all subscribe to that old saying, “All the world’s mad except me and thee, and even thee’s a little mad,” but in the DSM the oddness of our friends becomes Personality Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

Do people not have a right to escape anxiety at times? To use shortcuts if necessary, including sedative drugs? Yes, they surely do. But should doctors encourage this approach to life? I do not think so, except under the most limited circumstances. Because people cannot obtain minor tranquilizers without a doctor's prescription, I do not fault physicians who occasionally prescribe them to help patients get through a difficult few days or to get a good night's sleep; but their usefulness for more than a few days is highly questionable. Even the prodrug literature has not been able to show a beneficial impact beyond a few weeks, when tolerance and withdrawal symptoms develop.

Minor tranquilizers, like any sedative, can be harmful in the long run not only because they are habit-forming and addictive, but because they cover up anxiety by suppressing the capacity of the brain to generate feelings. The brain, as usual, tries to overcome the suppression and reacts in ways we cannot begin to predict or fully comprehend. As we have seen, drug-induced rebound anxiety is one common effect.

The drugged individual with a suppressed and confused anxiety signal system lives under a considerable handicap. At the least, feelings are pushed down, and with that, self-awareness is muted. More seriously, as the brain reacts against the drug, natural anxiety responses are muted but abnormal rebound anxiety reactions begin to flare up.

If we say that people's behavior is caused by their brain chemistry, not by their own choices, we treat them as less than human. If we take a so-called "compassionate" therapeutic approach to people generally, if we redefine every difficulty in living as a psychological problem that therapists should treat for us, then we have moved beyond human freedom and dignity.

Regards,
Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles,

wow.......who are you?? grad student, dr., writing a thesis????????????

so you do believe that anxiety or generalized anxiety disorder is a true illness?

everyone faces some sort of anxiety issues in everyday life. EVERYONE. for some people it is a disorder being that no external force need be present to put them into an anxiety or panic state, where there is no control over the mind or body. agree or disagree??

[Miles]

Needtoknow7896:

"...who are you?? grad student, dr., writing a thesis?" Something like that!

No, I do not believe anxiety is a true illness. In medicine, "illness" is defined as a condition of the body, or of some part or organ of the body, in which its functions are disturbed or deranged; i.e., a morbid physical condition; a lesion is generally present. There is no lesion for anxiety.

You may have seen the TV commercials in which drug companies urge people suffering from "social anxiety disorder" or "generalized anxiety disorder" to ask their doctor for a certain brand of pill. These ads reinforce the idea that anxiety and other kinds of psychological problems are medical issues, and they highlight the physician's role as pharmacological gatekeeper. This phenomenon illustrates what is known as "the creeping Therapeutic State."

I see it as insidious, especially given the cooperation between the government and the media. This is allowed on television. But advertising Scotch, a legal drink, is not allowed. This subtly undermines the rule of law, the principle that if something is legal, then it's legal, and if it's illegal, then it's illegal. A prescription drug is illegal; pharmacists cannot sell it to you unless you have a prescription. These are illegal drugs, but nobody calls them illegal drugs. So I see this as pernicious.

If there is no "external force," then there is no anxiety. Unless a legitimate disease is present, I do not believe in one having no control over one's mind/body. To hold such a belief is a cop-out.

Regards,
Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles,

i wish i could agree with you about this particular topic, but unfortunately i dont due to my own personal experiences with anxiety.

i understand your defense. no physical evidence-no illness. we cannot see or touch the air we breathe, but its there. we know its molecular structure, organically speaking, we know where and what atoms bond together to give its chemical makeup. but we only know what it "looks" like because of a model we have all see in chemistry class.

we cant discard what is real because we cannot hold it or point to it or "see" it.

i wish such a condition as anxiety didnt exist. i have been living with anxiety long before paxil, wellbutrin, and all the hundreds of other get-your-mind-right meds came about.

i know many others out there share the same opinion as you. its hard to believe something we have never had experience with. you will never understand true anxiety until youve lived it.

for those of us who truly suffer, we dont expect understanding, only compassion. you could never understand.

i am a strong woman..... i would never walk the streets trying to get the world to belive anxiety is real; doing so wouldnt make it go away............i dont need scientific proof to tell me what i feel in my own body.......i couldnt show you on a piece of paper what it is i feel inside......id throw out the old cliche, "walk in my shoes for a day" so you could "get it"- you would have the first one off long before you could put the second one on.

i dont wish anxiety on people i wouldnt even piss on if they were on fire. consider yourself blessed(or lucky..id bet youre agnostic) and be thankful you dont live with this burden. im not calling it a disease or illness......i dont know if categorizing it really makes a difference. it is what it is. and for some it is our everyday life.

i wish anxiety werent real. then i could cop-out.

count your blessings miles. oh, and that "personal responsibility" theory.....save that **** for the birds hun.

with best regards, i am

sincerely,

dc


p.s. actor?? liberal??

[Twizted]

Well, Anxieties and depression are NOT real? Oh my god!!! So let's see! I've been wrongly diagnosed all these years? Gosh Miles, you must be a genious!!! I've had what they call depression, anxieties, agoraphibia etc...for almost 20 years!!! And it's all a myth? WOW, have I ever had one pulled over on me? ARE YOU A GENIOUS??? hahaha
I don't care how I got sick! It's obviously in my head. But, to say that the way I feel is not real! Your absolutly crazy!!! And I may not be as SMART as you! But hell I've lived with these problems and they have affected me and my life in all aspects! Tell me what it is again that you think depression is once again? lol...I don't know why people have mental illneses? BUT I KNOW THAT THEY ARE REAL!!!

EFFEXOR XR!!! Help!!! I can't stop sweating. Has anyone else ever had this problem???

[Miles]

Twizted/Needtoknow7896:

I never said anxious and depressive behaviors are unreal. I am simply saying they are not illnesses. It is indeed important what language we use when referring to these behaviors. By calling problems in living "illnesses," we medicalize virtually every aspect of our behavior and divorce ourselves from personal responsibility, a concept central to the U.S. Constitution, yet repulsive to some ("save that **** for the birds hun.").

Miles

[Twizted]

Miles,
EXCUSE ME!!! Depression & anxieties are not illnesses? Hum, then what the hell are they to you? In your own professional words anyhow!
Do you have depression and or anxieties? If so then what is your excuse? If not, then who the h*ll are you to say what it is??? Hum, it is not an illness! Just a figment of your imagination Twizted! I hate people who think they have figured out another persons problems. Yet, have most likely never experienced a day of real depression in thier own freaking lives!!! Wow, I think your ingnorant though you seem to come across to others as being so smart!!! I've been told by some health professionals. Especially when it comes to my agoraphobia! Twizted, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and just get out there! Bite this!!! I've had mental "problems" for almost 20 years now! If I can't just get out and BITE the whatever they want me to bite? I doubt that I can take responsability for my actions and JUST DO IT!!! Have you ever read any articals stating that some people just never get over thier sad feelings! Or needless to say that some people never get well!!! So you know what? No matter how hard I've tried! Or what I've accomplished to do! My problems come back to haunt me every day!!! Can I ask you something Miles? What the H*ll are you doing on this site??? Obviously you don't belong here!!! So you should go away!!! And try to let us who have problems as others do! Give our insights on what may or may not be good for them! Bye Bye Miles.

EFFEXOR XR!!! Help!!! I can't stop sweating. Has anyone else ever had this problem???

[needtoknow7896]

miles-

all you do is talk in circles. i have read many of your posts and you say the same thing in ALL of them.

[Miles]

Twizted/Needtoknow7896:

To paraphrase a phrase from Twizted's lexicon, "bite on this:" Mental illness is not a disease; it is a myth. Madness is not diagnosed; it is manufactured. Psychiatry is not the science of "the unconscious"; it is the theology of medicine. Psychiatrists—from Sigmund Freud to Karl Menninger—are not beneficent healers who treat patients; they are base rhetoricians who trample rights, stigmatizing others by placing them in a position of institutionalized helplessness.

No, anxiety and depression are not illnesses... period! In our society, if enough people want to use medical ideas and medical interventions to fix everything, then everything—from poverty, to beating children, to sexual deviance, to taking drugs the government doesn't want you to take, to international relations, to political assassinations—everything unpleasant will look like a disease, especially a mental disease, and everything pleasant will look like a treatment. (It is indeed odd that we want to explain everything "emotionally unpleasant" [e.g., depression and anxiety] in terms of "bad brain chemistry," yet the more "pleasant" aspects of life are not attributed to "good brain chemistry.")

Psychiatry has become perhaps the ultimate refuge for the politically correct. Unlike regular physicians, who have no need to rename diabetes or hypertension, psychiatrists labor under the unremitting pressure of cultural forces to slap approving or disapproving labels on certain behaviors. With women's liberation, nymphomania, formerly a "sexual perversion," has become normal behavior; whereas smoking, formerly de rigueur among psychiatrists, is now a disreputable mental disorder called "tobacco dependence."

In today's world, psychiatry and its central concepts of insanity and mental illness are key concepts in a struggle that is really ideological. They are part and parcel of a struggle to define the nature of man, to overthrow concepts like "choice" and "responsibility," and replace them with medical, "scientific," and behavioristic alternatives. Yes, I may repeat myself in several postings, and I wonder if this is making you uncomfortable as you seem to intimate... Are you afraid of the murky issues surrounding insanity and mental illness? Do you think you are secretly nuts?

Yours In Freedom,
Miles

[Twizted]

What's wrong with putting a label on a problem to help small minded people like me to understand! Miles, the one thing that I find so annoying is how you have the all the answers! Ok, it's obvious you have way too much spare time and you read way too much! do you belive everything you read! You know what? YES, I have a mental illness. And no I'm not affraid that I'm going crazy! I am CRAZY.[] lmfao...Hell, your freaking NUTS!!! Oh yes, and how did you find this sight! Maybe I was wrong in saying you shouldn't be here! I honestly believe now, that you do need to be here! lol...How did you put it? "NUTTY"...RIGHT!!! I think your a little over concernd about your own thoughts and beliefs! Maybe your here to prove to yourself that your not just a little NUTTY yourself!!! [}] Well, I'm sure we will all be waiting to see what you have to write next! I will, your very interesting!!! NOT!!! Bye~bye Miles sure to here from you soon!!! The Twizted one...YES ME!!! lmao...

EFFEXOR XR!!! Help!!! I can't stop sweating. Has anyone else ever had this problem???

[Miles]

Twizted:

Rather than assailing the writer, why not try to contribute something meaningful to the discussion? Is it me you have a problem with, or the subject matter of my postings?

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." (Albert Einstein)

Regards,
Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles-

i like quotes myself.

"it's better to be pissed off, than pissed on."

(and frankly you are pissing Twizted off....take it easy smartass)


-d

[Transaction7]

Szasz, a counter-culture icon in this field cited by one poster, has certainly had some interesting and possibly valid insights, but anyone who argues, much less this vehemently and repetitively, that severe depression is not a disease, that it represents a character defect, much less, of all things, the result of a want of personal responsiblity, has never experienced it, never considered the evidence relating to its causes and treatment, and, regardless of how many books they may or may not have read, has overlooked or refused to face an awful lot of the available evidence. Frankly, the ad hominem debate over who is or is not an idiot, fool, or charlatan, and efforts to convince others, and maybe themselves, that they are so much smarter than everybody else, markedly reduces the usefulness of this particular discussion forum up to this point.

I have experienced serious clinical depression since early childhood, and been treated for it with therapy, medication, or combinations thereof for much of my adult life, and I have also known a very large number of other people affected by this condition. Just as I did not until I received expert help and advice, most people, and certainly most people who have never experienced real clinical depression, in themselves or others close to them, couldn't possibly even begin to understand what this is. The good psychologists and psychiatrists do know and understand a lot about it that checks out with what those of us who have grown up and lived with it knew but didn'tunderstand until we sought their advice and help,

Forget whether someone calls it mental illness, a chemical brain imbalance, functional, organic, a cognitive disotrtion or the result thereof, the result of environmental influences, or Puppy Chow if you prefer, for the moment. Some parts of it do respond better, in some people, some of the time, to medication, cognitive talk therapy, or a combination thereof.

The very common idea, which one recent survey indicates is held by 40% of the American apeople, that mental illness, such as clinical depression, is a chracter flaw, and particularly the argument I have seen made in this forum that a lack or want of personal responsibility is involved, is not only demonstrably ridiculous, but reveals the kind of willful ignorance of those who would still continue to insist that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around it in a bowl of Jello. You will even find this foolish lie on the Web site of one national association of officials charged with licensing members of a learned profession, but it is based upon the same kind of ignorant prejudice and dishonest self-interest that led to laws and practices prohibiting the receipt or devaluing any consideration of the testimony of a Black witness against a White party in court, or the theory that you would have Black children if you received blood from a Black man, or might go "oink" and wallow in tee mud if you recieved a pig heart valve, which were actually believed and acted upon in my early lifetime.

The fact is that, far from denying or seeking to avoid personal responsibility, an awful lot of people who suffer from chronic depresison have an over-developed sense of personal responsiblity and tend to feel responsible for things over which they have no control, tend to be overly pefectionistic, etc. Their own writings acknowledged that Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, astronaut Buzz Aldrin, etc., hardly ecapist goof-offs blaming others for their torubles, had, and knew they had, it, whether they could undestand its cause or not.

Certain posters have obviously never experienced either real clinical depression, or the relief, which, in my own experience, was like someone had finally turned off an electric fense with which I was entangled, which antidepressant medication can provide, alone or together with cognitive therapy which tends to help. Telling someone that this can result from cotgnitive distortions may sound like you are calling them an idiot whose thoughts are worthless, untill everyone understands this, but it is not. [I happen ot have been a National Merit Scholarshp finalist with 99 3/4th percetile verbal scores and two degrees from selective colelges, and to have practiced my learned profession credibly, with clinical depression.] It is a fact that you could get some relief from antieprssant medication and not get to the bottom of some of the distortions at the root of the problem, or get to hte bototm of those and still suffer depression from biochemical causes.

I had not understood what clinical depression was, and thus not understood my condition and depression, until I finally reached the point of seeking help for it. I have heard someone else with thisdescribe it as like not being alive, or like being separated from the rest of the living universe by a glass wall, or Winston Churchill's metaphor of being followed by a big black dog. Like others I have known with depression, I had originally believe that I was entirely alone in this. I have had some very good, and some awfully, criminally bad, psychiatrists and therapists.

Some of the common antidepressant medications do, and some do not, work for particular derpessed people. I responded best to a combinatin of a lot of cognitive and other therapy and antidepressant medication, without which it is doubtful that the therapy would have worked. I avhe had this under control for years now on Celexa, an antidepressant. My wife can tell if I goof and skip a day or two, entirely independently of whether what is going on in my life is good or unpleasant.

Regarding antidepressant medications, and why they work, don't work, or work and then stop working, in one unique individual case and not in another, I'm no expert, but I know what has worked and what has not, and what made me worse.. We did accidentally discover that good Texas picante sauce or salsa had a significant antidepressant effect, and that some of us could down a quart of it when we needed it for that purpose but not anywhere near that much normally, long before we heard from an expert on making it that they had heard from a medical expert that it does contian something that appears to have some of the same chemical effects on sertonin production and re-uptake, etc., which figure in the explanations for why certain prescription antidepressants work.

[Twizted]

Well put Transaction 7,
If you have never experienced deaprssion! How can one say exacltly what it is? You took the words right out of my mouth! Maybe I could not have expressed myself in the way that you have! But way to go!!!
Miles I haven't a problem with you!!! As I said before, your comments are hilarious! You remeind me of someone I know! He is a Molecular Biologist, but I wouldn't take his word on anything! Just because he is smart! Does not mean that he knows what the hell he is talking about!!! Glad to have you on board Transition 7. We need someone who can keep up to Miles and all his large words! " Minus the experience of not having the illness"! Give it to him 7...lol
Looking forward to here form Miles once again!
Tee-Hee I had no idea that this place would be so much fun!!!
Bye Twizted. [^]

EFFEXOR XR!!! Help!!! I can't stop sweating. Has anyone else ever had this problem???

[satelliteguy]

Miles,
Depression is not just a myth, it is real. you say it's not real. sickness like dementia kills the brain cells, and it will make you be depressed. they are medicine that can help. I have dementia and I am dieing with it, I did not wount to live anymore. But with the help of the LORD and my Dr. and medicine. I'm living a little longer. I hope you never get sick like this. For Kris-Lin go get help, see your Dr. Do not let the problem go to long like I did, thinging like miles. I have to have someone to help with just about every thing now. GOD bess you all that is here to help others with Depression. It took me just about 45 mins. to type this. I can not go fast anymore.

[needtoknow7896]

satellite man-

your are now and forever in my prayers. pray for me as well. were here for one another. this is FREE theorapy!!

-d

[Miles]

Transaction7/Twisted/Satelliteguy/Needtoknow7896:

One of you writes, "Forget whether someone calls it mental illness, a chemical brain imbalance, functional, organic, a cognitive disotrtion (sic) or the result thereof, the result of environmental influences, or Puppy Chow if you prefer,..."Let's do call mental illness Puppy Chow - that would put in under the purview of veterinary medicine, not psychology or psychotherapy.

Another post, "Depression is not just a myth, it is real. you say it's not real." No, mental illness is a myth. Pain and suffering are real and part of everyday living. Treating problems in living as medical problems is insulting to freedom-loving persons the world over!

Another post, "Just because he is smart! Does not mean that he knows what the hell he is talking about!!!" What does it take to "know what the he** (one) is talking about? Would research, science, medical knowledge count for anything, or are we confined to "opinions?"

Another post, "The good psychologists and psychiatrists do know and understand a lot about it (depression) that checks out with what those of us who have grown up and lived with it knew but didn’t understand until we sought their advice and help,..." May I infer that these professionals "know what the he** they were talking about" Why the situational ethos here?

The inexorable expansion of the concept of mental illness despite a fragile empirical basis leaves psychiatrists vulnerable to accusations of unjustified medicalization of deviant behavior and the vicissitudes of daily life. There is a need to guard against invasions of liberty in the name of mental health - human dignity demands that people be assumed to be in control of their behavior and not brain diseased unless there is strong evidence to the contrary.

Yours in freedom,
Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles-

you quote, "Would research, science, medical knowledge count for anything, or are we confined to "opinions?""


let me give you a quote on "opinions".............."opinions are like assholes; everyone's got em' and they all stink."

im sure it's not the first time youve heard that, but you could stand to hear it again.


dude, get over yourself. youre not impressing anyone, nor are you going to convince anyone that depression and anxiety are none other than failing to "nut up" when life gets tough. WE are the strong ones. and we know better than most about "personal responsibility."

-d

p.s. yahoo has some really fun games if you want to go chill there. pool is my favorite.

[Miles]

Needtoknow7896:

Yes, I have seen you use that peurile quote several times. I don't try to impress, but I am certainly flattered that you are.

Opinions are irrelevant in medical science, and I do believe that is the subject matter, not mysticism or witchcraft. Glad to hear you enjoy being coerced into "normalcy" - you would have made an effective Nazi.

Yours in freedom,
Miles

[needtoknow7896]

miles,

baby, it would take much, much more than spouting out your philosophy on anxiety and depression to impress me. youre still batting in the minors. give me some big league hits and then, maybe, youll impress me. though, i do appreciate the wordy efforts you put forth.

why the constant over compensation?

you say i would be a great Nazi?.... in some ways that may seem like a low blow, but i like it. you recognize that im passionate. maybe next time miles.

-d