[ARTIST658]

I hadn't responded to the last post as, quite honestly, I couldn't make much sense of it! I think he was speaking of OCD - then depression, but all the terms baffled me, and my guess is - that was his intent.

My points are simple: (1) In very short term use, the "euphoria" of opiate drugs may appear to be a treatment to depression, but it's a damned poor one. Opiates are 'numbing' to physical and emotional pain - so what appears to be 'relief' is merely temporary 'numbing.' I see it as exactly the same as drinking whiskey to deal with depression. Sure, whiskey will ease the feelings for a short while, but any long-term use is bound to cause problems. That's the nature of whiskey - AND the nature of opiates.

(2) Over any length of time, opiates are going to INCREASE depression, not relieve it. (Same, again, as booze.) If a person tells me they are depressed AND they are taking opiates regularly, my first suggestion is to get as far away from opiates as possible. The opiates could very well be the CAUSE of the depression!

(3) Trying to pursue any kind of meaningful counseling or therapy while under the influence of opiates regularly is not going to be successful. Therapy/counseling is all about becoming honest with ourselves and our feelings -- and the feelings brought on by opiates are NOT our normal feelings. Whatever emotions you try to 'work through' in counseling will still be there, when the opiates are removed. It's rather like trying to talk out your problems while drinking beer... sure, we may get emotional, teary or angry, but it's the booze talking - not our true feelings. So nothing is ever 'resolved.' It will return again and again.

Can I say that opiates are NEVER the answer for depression? YES, and I'd say the same about alcohol. Trouble is, some folks are so intent on justifying their opiate use, they will fight 'tooth n nail' to find a way to keep taking them.

[newyorkgal]

Another comparison would be using benzos for anxiety. Sure, benzos work in the short term to ease feelings of anxiety, but in the long term, you end up taking higher doses of benzos, they are HIGHLY addictive, and for that reason, end up causing more anxiety than they originally got rid of. Same scenario with opiates for depression. Short term fix, long term disaster.

[ARTIST658]

Originally Posted by newyorkgal

Another comparison would be using benzos for anxiety. Sure, benzos work in the short term to ease feelings of anxiety, but in the long term, you end up taking higher doses of benzos, they are HIGHLY addictive, and for that reason, end up causing more anxiety than they originally got rid of. Same scenario with opiates for depression. Short term fix, long term disaster.

EXACTLY!!! Well-said, NewYorkGal!!!

In fact, contrary to how many doctors use it, benzos (klonopin, ativan, xanax, valium, etc.) are NOT meant for long-term use - in time, they actually INCREASE anxiety, not lessen it!!! The use of benzo's is only intended for SHORT TERM USE - through a crisis, not through day-to-day life.

[newyorkgal]

Thanks Ruth. And one more thing. When someone would ask me to describe the feeling of heroin or other opiates, I would always say it was like a shield encircling my body, protecting me from all bad feelings. In retrospect, I know it was only FOR THE MOMENT. The long term result of opiate use has been more depression than I could have ever imagined, not only for me but for my loved ones. So while it will get rid of depression and in fact, all negative feelings, while you're under the influence, it can't last (like benzos). You need a long term fix for depression which you get by delving into yourself, finding out why you feel the way you do, bettering yourself and always working on it. In my case, I've been on almost every antidepressant there is and none ever had any effect. However, opiates ultimately had the opposite effect.

[methadonfriendly826]

Originally Posted by ARTIST658

EXACTLY!!! Well-said, NewYorkGal!!!

In fact, contrary to how many doctors use it, benzos (klonopin, ativan, xanax, valium, etc.) are NOT meant for long-term use - in time, they actually INCREASE anxiety, not lessen it!!! The use of benzo's is only intended for SHORT TERM USE - through a crisis, not through day-to-day life.

that's not 100 percent accurate. Someone i know has been taking xanax for over 10 years for high blood pressure and he has never become addicted. In fact he doesnt even like taking them unless he has to and he's been taking them for over 10 years. Now i understand what you mean when you say they are addicting yes that is true some people do get addicted. but not everybody has an addictive personality and to be quite honest the people who do abuse meds ruine it for the people who do not and just take them as prescribed.

[newyorkgal]

methfriendly, I disagree. I do agree that if a person has an addictive personality, their drug use will escalate more quickly and they will get hooked more readily (could be food, ****************, shopping, alcohol, drugs or almost anything). Anyone taking benzo for 10 years steadily would have to have a dependence on them. It's psysiological. Benzo's are not a medicine for high blood pressure but it might lower blood pressure by lessening anxiety and panic. After 10 years, abruptly stopping xanax or valium would cause withdrawal symptoms definitely.

[ARTIST658]

Given the very nature of benzodiazepenes, it is impossible NOT to become physically addicted to them over time. As a matter of fact, I did not abuse klonopin - I took it as prescribed, 3 times a day for 9 years. Nevertheless, I endured a horrific withdrawal (worse than any other drug I'd taken) when I stopped taking them. That is the drug, not the person.

With so many other safer medications on the market for high blood pressure, I can not imagine taking xanax for 10 years. Even when the drug is NOT abused, it numbs a person's mind and emotions - just like drinking alcohol does to a non-alcoholic. It HAS an effect on a person that is inevitable. Just because a person is not addicted to booze, they still will experience the high from drinking one drink.

As a matter of fact, few people I've run into believe they are abusing benzo drugs. Most, like myself, say we've taken it only as prescribed. Nevertheless, they go through hell coming off those drugs. After they are off them, like myself - they find out that indeed, they were living in a fog all that time, and had no idea the effect the drugs had had on them.

[YankeeInCA]

Dear "Depressed as long as I can remember": Good for you for taking control of your own health!

California is quite liberal, though doctors have the DEA constantly breathing down their necks. You need to visit local doctors until you find a sympathetic one. When you list your medications, you say, for example, "I take two Norcos four times a day." If he/she freaks out, that is not the right doctor for you.

Notice that the physicians on this site would numb intense physical pain but not intense emotional pain. It's the mind/body dichotomy we brought to the New World from Europe. They have obviously never been severely depressed.

If something works for you, it works. I think the doctors' message, if they were in your shoes for a day, would be "Treat the drug with respect. It's like having a firearm in the house."

Tip: Try to get and stay one month ahead in your refills as part of your earthquake kit, so that you never encounter a withdrawal problem for an unforeseen event - such as an earthquake. Don't put yourself at the mercy of other adults.

We've got one life. Live long and prosper.

[mareke]

You are right 'YankeeInCA' that people will readily accept physicians prescribing medication for physical conditions including physical pain but there is a view amongst many people that intense emotional pain must not be alleviated and needs to be ‘worked through’. My understanding of depression is that while the majority of cases are due to people having difficulty adjusting to life circumstances there are people who are depression prone irrespective of life circumstances. Some people apparently have a genetic predisposition to becoming depressed and there are no problems to be worked through other than the depression itself. If such people had a physical condition that involved suffering as intense as the emotional suffering of the depression it would be considered acceptable to treat it with medication but with depression it’s considered ‘evil’ to do so. Depression is generally regarded as a challenge to adjust and grow and in many cases this is probably true and most cases of depression can be worked through but some may persist. The attitude in such cases is that an opiate would be a crutch yet many people in society function with crutches and would not be able to do so without them.

It’s considered perfectly acceptable for example to treat people with lifestyle related diseases such as type 2 diabetes, high cholesterol or high blood pressure with medication (which has harmful side effects) that treats the symptoms rather than insisting that they ‘work through their problems’ i.e. alter their lifestyle so the disease goes away. The same people that have no moral objection to these lifestyle related diseases (the majority of diseases in western societies are probably lifestyle related) being treated symptomatically by medications while the disease continues to kill the person consider it morally ‘evil’ to treat a depressed person that has failed to respond to any other treatment with just enough of an opiate to get the person up and moving, eating properly, working and socialising and then hopefully in time being able to do without the opiate.

One argument used by those against the prescribing of opiates is that the person will get ‘high’ and take more and more but not all people have addictive personalities and the dose prescribed to treat depression doesn’t need to be such that the person gets high but rather enough so the person can function in the world. Those arguing against the use of opiates under all circumstances assume that everyone in the community is addiction prone and incapable of taking doses just sufficient to enable them to function without abusing the medication but this is also not necessarily the case.

There is also the perception that while taking the opiate the person will do nothing to learn to cope without it and this also is not necessarily the case. I’ve taken tramadol on and off for around 10 years for physical pain relief but when it was first prescribed I was also quite stressed and experiencing emotional pain which was greatly exacerbating my physical pain. The tramadol worked well relieving my physical pain and also alleviating some of the emotional pain (which may well have been depression). Eventually I developed better coping skills and my life circumstances changed and as a result my physical and emotional pain lessened so I stopped taking the tramadol (and after a couple of days of bearable withdrawal my body was back to normal).

Those on the forum that are vehemently against the use of opiates except for a physical condition (such as chronic physical pain) would say that I should never have been prescribed the tramadol because there was an emotional component to my suffering. I shudder to think what might have happened had I been denied the relief I received from the drug as the physical not to mention the emotional pain I was under at the time was bad enough that I felt overwhelmed and I needed time free of the pain so I could develop better ways of coping. As it is the tramadol gave me the relief I needed so over time I did develop coping strategies and now I no longer take the drug except occasionally when in a lot of physical pain. I’m grateful I didn’t have a doctor with the same puritanical dogmatic 'toughen up or die' attitude that many in our society have.

[YankeeInCA]

Thank you for saying it so clearly and thoroughly, mareke. Everyone has different responses to different ailments and different treatments. The DEA treats doctors like children, forcing doctors to turn around and treat intelligent adults like children.

Why are alcohol and nicotine, the two most dangerous drugs around, available without a prescription? Because, as currently used, they are a more traditional part of our civilization. Yet the Indians went through hell to win the right to use the harmless cactus, peyote, an ancient part of their ceremonies. We should be listening to them, not vice versa.

Mexico tried to replace shamans with doctors, and to its credit, closely monitored the situation with anthropologists on the ground. Policy-makers backpedaled as soon as they saw how disastrous the results were to Native societies. Depression and suicide had skyrocketed -- and there are 30,000,000 Indians in Mexico, according to the CIA Country Fact websites! (Now doctors work with shamans.)

We are all adults here. To "discuss it with your doctor" should be added, "and with whomever knows you best," and "with yourself, honestly." Then everyone ought to be free to make his or her own healthcare decisions. We will look back on this as a shameful era.

[jloops]

Originally Posted by musicman48

I see one thing you have not tried yet...I realize I am out of line here.but you should stop by a church service at a different church for a few weeks.Maybe you will find one you like.Opiates are not the answer.Over time they will turn on you.It is not a good approach to mental health.I apologize for bringing religion in to this but you sound desperate on many levels.Good luck.

I completely disagree.

Opiates are the answer for some people's depression.

If you are the type of person who cannot cure your depression by any means, and you'd need medication permanently (IF you could find one that worked anyhow) -- then there's no downside to using opiates.

Some claim that many or even most people just want to take more and more and more...

All the science says that's bull. In studies where people have unlimited access to heroin, morphine, etc., they all find a level and stick to it, and usually reduce from there at some point.

If you're in it for the long haul, opioids are just fine.

Just be sure you're comfortable with the idea of taking them permanently AND that you've exhausted any safer options. Which really means non-drug options, because the drugs for depressio (Although, I'm not sure what is safer -- is Prozac really safer? Maybe, maybe not... Probably not...)

[jloops]

Originally Posted by ARTIST658

I hadn't responded to the last post as, quite honestly, I couldn't make much sense of it! I think he was speaking of OCD - then depression, but all the terms baffled me, and my guess is - that was his intent.

My points are simple: (1) In very short term use, the "euphoria" of opiate drugs may appear to be a treatment to depression, but it's a damned poor one. Opiates are 'numbing' to physical and emotional pain - so what appears to be 'relief' is merely temporary 'numbing.' I see it as exactly the same as drinking whiskey to deal with depression. Sure, whiskey will ease the feelings for a short while, but any long-term use is bound to cause problems. That's the nature of whiskey - AND the nature of opiates.

(2) Over any length of time, opiates are going to INCREASE depression, not relieve it. (Same, again, as booze.) If a person tells me they are depressed AND they are taking opiates regularly, my first suggestion is to get as far away from opiates as possible. The opiates could very well be the CAUSE of the depression!

(3) Trying to pursue any kind of meaningful counseling or therapy while under the influence of opiates regularly is not going to be successful. Therapy/counseling is all about becoming honest with ourselves and our feelings -- and the feelings brought on by opiates are NOT our normal feelings. Whatever emotions you try to 'work through' in counseling will still be there, when the opiates are removed. It's rather like trying to talk out your problems while drinking beer... sure, we may get emotional, teary or angry, but it's the booze talking - not our true feelings. So nothing is ever 'resolved.' It will return again and again.

Can I say that opiates are NEVER the answer for depression? YES, and I'd say the same about alcohol. Trouble is, some folks are so intent on justifying their opiate use, they will fight 'tooth n nail' to find a way to keep taking them.

There's no science to support this.

To the contrary, there is science to support the conclusion that opioids ARE excellent treatments for depression.

Look at someone on opiates who is happy. Are they numb? Can you look at a person on opiates, a person on Prozac (for whom the drug actually worked), and a non-depressed person on no drugs and tell the difference?

I don't recommend taking opiates willy-nilly, but for someone who is depressed seriously, and who has been for many years, and who has little to no hope of a drug free, long-term solution -- in my personal experience, if the opioids relieve your depression, they'll continue to do so over the long-term, with constipation and sexual side effects as the only likely problems.

I will suggest that you use moderation with your dosage.

I will also suggest that you do not give up on getting off of the opiates at some point. If your depression is put into full "remission" (if you will) -- something, by the way, which is very uncommon with "antidepressants" (which usually only marginally improve the situation), but quite common with opiates -- six months, a year, or a few years may give you enough time to "unlearn" your depressed habits.

This is another reason to keep your dose moderate -- that way, when it comes time to test the waters of a drug free life, you won't face an extreme battle.

And, any ******** about opiates "numbing" pain rather than actually relieving depression -- what does that even mean?!?!? What is an "antidepressant" then, and how is it different?

You can't bring terms like that to bear on subjective experience and then generalize.

I know many people describe opiates that way. I personally can't identify ONE BIT with people who felt "numb" on opiates. Quite the opposite is true in my experience. (That said, I don't discount what they claim to experience.)

However, the original poster clearly stated that she felt "alive for the first time" and many other things to that effect. Clearly, she is not one of the people who merely felt numb on opiates rather than happy (and for some reason -- which is unfathomable -- decided to keep using them).

And, since when does whiskey merely numb emotions? Have you ever watched a drinker? I've seen PLENTY of emotions that were fully UNNUMBED by liquor!

Opiates are effective anti-depressants. Quitting them is crumby. So is quitting Paxil. I'd rather have diarrhea than a sensation of electric shocks in my brain, but that's just me.

That said, there's things you should try first -- exercise, fish oil, therapy (which you did say you tried), etc. I can't say for sure or from personal experience, but I'll give some credit to psychiatry and say that I assume that you're also probably better off trying a Prozac type drug. If, after years of this stuff, you're still not better, then trying opiates is completely reasonable.

However, I'd stay with the WEAKEST opiate, at the LOWEST dosage possible (at which your depression is still relieved).

It's BS that opiates are going to increase depression over any length of time. That's true of people who feel guilty about using opiates, people who are using in an inconsistent way in an immoral prohibitionist society that puts them in the position of constantly staring at the prospect of withdrawal (or arrest) if something goes wrong, etc. And I'm sure it's true of some people with none of those concerns.

Most people on opiates maintain quite steadily for many years at a stable dose IF they don't have the drive to screw around and use other drugs and play with their dose (on the high side). People who aren't like that simply don't have these problems.

(Poly-drug users, by far, have the worst relationship with opiates.)

None of this describes the poster.

Take your pills, be happy to have your life back, and consider tapering off once your depression is a relatively distant memory and you don't feel like you need them. Never feel guilty about it, and always remember WHY you decided to take them in the first place.

Bear in mind the risks, though. It won't work for everyone, and finding and keeping a good doctor can be tough. (That said, you shouldn't be flying to Europe. Worst case scenario, you find a doctor to script you Vicodin or buprenorphine, which are both Schedule III drugs in the U.S. The buprenorphine you have guaranteed access to if you have the money for it, which is not all that great if you find a cheap doctor and you only take 2 mg a day!)

Good luck, be careful, and remember that if you are the type who needs a large dose and may want to quit some day, you're going to have to go through withdrawal which tends to bring on depression... But, if you were going to be depressed for many years, if not permanently -- as best as you can surmise based on your adult life for many years -- what's the loss?

I should reemphasize, if you skipped steps 1 and 2 -- things like exercise, fish oil, and lifestyle modifications -- and proceeded directly to drugs (and formal therapy, which should also precede the drugs), I HIGHLY recommend you do these things. If you haven't already, get on a treadmill and break a sweat six times a week for an hour every time and take a teaspoon of fish oil every day, all this for 3 months, before you make the leap to long-term opiate use.

I'll also mention one thing I read about -- there is some evidence to suggest that NON-daily opiate usage can help with OCD, at least. (Was this already mentioned?) Since OCD and depression are treated with similar drugs constantly, and OCD is considered an anxiety disorder (and you mentioned taking benzos already), you may find some benefit there. A woman I read about was treated with a single morphine dosage once a week and felt much better... I don't have a hard time imagining how such an experience once a week could lift the fog of depression, but I imagine many more people find relief from constant dosing.

[ARTIST658]

I find it startling how some folks on this thread have become so passionate in their defense of taking opiates for their depression. Clearly, it's quite important for them to pursue this line of reasoning. If you can muster up an army of supporters behind you, then I guess it feels like the 'right' thing to do. Sadly, in spite of a legion of advocates, it is YOU that will end up suffering in the end, if that's the way you choose to live. When you require more and more of the narcotic to get the desired effect (which is the very nature of opiates), coming back here to say, "But all these people told me it was safe!!!" isn't going to help you.

I gain nothing by posting here. I am not out to defend my position for any personal motive - or to defend my own drug use. I am here to share my own knowledge and education about opiate drugs - and try to spare someone else the horrors of pursuing such a course of treatment. I have worked in the field of substance abuse for years, and continue to do so today.

I suggest that anyone thinking that their answer to depression lies in an opiate do some serious reading about the drug. Yes, there is plenty of scientific evidence to support my words!!! There's a damn good reason these are controlled substances monitored by the DEA. There's a dozen good reasons why doctors don't dispense these drugs routinely for depression - it could cost their license to do so, as it is that dangerous. No one thinks they'll have a problem - we all like to think we're above that. It isn't 'puritanical' to protect people from the dangers of these drugs - it's just common sense!

There's no such controls on paxil or prozac, as they are not drugs of abuse. There's no comparison. Some of the reasoning on this thread would be laughable, if it weren't that thousands of people are reading along - and can easily be thinking it's perfectly safe to take opiates, as others proclaim. That's what concerns me. That's why I wrote here. I can't reasonably discuss opiates with folks who are already taking them - that's like trying to argue with an active drunk... it's a waste of time.

Opiates cloud thinking -- period. There is a good reason why pill bottles come with the warning not to take those medications and drive. (It doesn't say that on a paxil bottle! Be serious.) Opiates create feelings of euphoria to begin with - but the very chemical nature of opiates requires more and more of the drug to gain the euphoric effect in time. That isn't because a person is weak, it's because that's what opiates do! [Even when a person is in severe pain, needing narcotics, they will require more and more of them to gain pain relief. That's often why people die, taking them - as they keep requiring more to get the same effect, and their respiration slows in response.]

It's clear to me, reading through the history of others' posts, that some of you (who are debating with me about drug abuse!) have already experienced this increased tolerance with some drugs. When our required dosage exceeds what is safely recommended, we have a dependency problem - and try though we may, cutting that back to a 'moderate dose' can be next to impossible.

Clearly, it is a free country, and as long as you abide by the laws, you are free to take anything for your depression. But don't dispense your opinions as facts -- and risk someone else's life by suggesting they do the same. My posts are the result of 17 years of recovery (from chronic pain, chronic depression and subsequent addiction); years of advanced education in the field of substance abuse, and working hand-in-hand, day after day with people who have experienced the sheer hell of this line of thinking.

In the words of Shakespere, "I think s/he doth protest too much" -- hmmm? I know why I'm passionate about trying to spare others the nightmare of taking opiates for depression -- but why, pray tell, are you so eager to encourage it???

God bless,
Ruth

[ruby2oozdy]

Originally Posted by Phidippus

The best way to treat treatment resistant OCD is with a multi-faceted approach. OCD involves a lot of problems with the reward pathways of the brain and several neurotransmitters are involved. OCD involves several different receptors, mostly H2, M4, NK1, NMDA, and non-NMDA glutamate receptors. The receptors 5-HT1D, 5-HT2C, and the μ opioid receptor exert a secondary effect. The central dysfunction[clarification needed] of OCD may involve the receptors nk1, non-NMDA glutamate receptors, and NMDA, whereas the other receptors could simply exert secondary modulatory effects. The orbitofrontal cortex (OFC), the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC), the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPC), the head of the caudate nucleus and the thalamus are all implicated in OCD. A dysfunction of these networks at one or several stages will result in the emergence and maintenance of repetitive thoughts and characteristic OCD behavior.

I have treatment resistant OCD and I hit it from all angles. I use Lexapro which hits the 5ht receptors, which in turn modulates glutamate. I use Dexedrine which also modifies glutamate in two separate regions of the brain. I use Geodon which modulates Dopaminergic transmission, which in turn modulates glutamatergic transmissions. I also take Keppra which modulate non-NMDA glutamate receptors. To top it off I take Tramadol PRN which hits the μ opioid receptor and Gabitril which modulates GABA. All with little or no side effects - Geodon and Keppra make me a little sleepy.

Morphine Sulfate is an opiate and is listed as an augmentation strategy for treating OCD in the APA guidelines. My psychiatrist prescribes opiates for treatment of OCD and depression and I'm sure he'd be happy to talk with you. BUT, I really recommend you take an SSRI along with the opiate to really get the best results. Again, OCD is a complex disorder which involves dysfunction of several key brain areas.

Please contact me if you'd like more info and if you'd like me to put you in touch with my psychiatrist.

P

What a great psychiatrist, willing not only to consider socially stigmatized treatment, but to understand that he's treating more than one physiological problem. You're very lucky. I know that OCD can be terrible. I'm glad you've found a solution (or a combination that is a solution).

[ruby2oozdy]

Originally Posted by newyorkgal

Another comparison would be using benzos for anxiety. Sure, benzos work in the short term to ease feelings of anxiety, but in the long term, you end up taking higher doses of benzos, they are HIGHLY addictive, and for that reason, end up causing more anxiety than they originally got rid of. Same scenario with opiates for depression. Short term fix, long term disaster.

I've been taking a benzodiazepine (Clonazepam) for anxiety for 15 years. I have increased the dose once. It was an experiment to see if taking 2 at night instead of one would prevent my having the most horrible nightmares you can imagine just before waking up. If you wake up to a ghastly nightmare (I'm talking about blood & gore & your pets & children), your day is tainted. It worked, so I now take 3 (1 in the morning, 1 at night (half life is 12 hrs), and 1 for the nightmares). Trying to appear anywhere normal when you have pathological, long-term anxiety just adds anxiety. I'm happy that there's a drug out there that works for me. I don't care that I'm addicted to it. I'm addicted to air and water, too. I don't expect a need to increase the Clonazepam in the future.

Xanax, however, is another animal. It's a benzo, but its half-life is only about 6 hrs. I can forget to take a Clonazepam and not suffer any withdrawal, but the one time I forgot to take a Xanax, I went into withdrawal the next day, at work. It made for a very interesting workday. My shrink switched me to Clonazepam (no w/d effects from shifting from Xanax), and things have been much better since.

[ruby2oozdy]

Since Tramadol is an opioid, and is used for chronic pain, extremely depressed people who have not had a problem with street drug addiction and want to try an opiate for their depression can get Tramadol by seeing a doctor for pain, even if you don't have any (but I bet you do).

[Debpurpletiger]

You sure have a lot of negative feelings about this subject. Please google for Buprenorphine for Refractory Depression.

I suffer from Depression and Borderline personality - when I was on Suboxone to get off Opiates, my depression disappeared, I felt the best mentally that I have ever felt. I felt "normal". Not "high" NOR CRAVING TO GET HIGH!!! Those with Depression will know what I mean.

Anyways, it IS proven that Narcotics work on Depression as well as pain - we all know the question, "Does depression get worse because we're in pain?" OR, "Does the pain get worse due to the Depression?" Its like asking what came first, the chicken or the egg.

Depression can be JUST as debilitating as Chronic Pain.

I suggest you read the studies before you keep spounting your opinions off....

[cheekysod]

i totally agree with the artist, she is right.
you guys are trying to convince yourselves you are correct and you arent.
of course opiates make us feel better, hence less depression.
and that guy who said if we had a whole load of heroin and morphine we wouldn't hog out on it. c'mon where have you been.
i am an addict. if i had a sh!t load of heroin, i would take more and more. not be satisfied with what i had the day before. its the nature of the beast.

you guys need to get real. and jhoops you are the one who wants to be put to sleep when you go through detox, yet you are recommending depressed people take opiates. pleeeeease.

and long term opiate use does make you depressed, because you are damn well hooked on bullsh!t. ive been there, and i cant beleive all the ******** i am reading on this thread.

ARTIST ruth, good on you, don't feel bullied by these people, they are trying to excuse their use. and i will probably cop a whole load of flak for saying this, but i get in trouble all the time on here for that. so too bad.

[Debpurpletiger]

ARTIST658!!!

You are so uneducated about this it is ridiculous! I told you to google Burpenorphine awd refractory depression and I can tell by your reply, you didnt.

There have been so many studies conducted on Opiates helping Depression, you REALLY need to stop with your BS till you do some studyuing.. I WAS OF THE SAME OPINION as you until I read the studies, and I have Bordeline Personality Disorder AND Depression.

jloops, YOU are absolutly correct!

[cheekysod]

maybe this is the stalker melinda is on about.
now we are going to have a load of depressed people becoming hooked on opiates because they make us feel good.
c'mon deb, get real, you have an addiction, as do i.
and as for the borderline personality, wtf, what does that mean.
what is it please, are you borderline normal, borderline crazy, borderline what.

bi polar = ups and downs in life
s.a.d = social anxiety disorder = shy
adhd = cant concentrate
ocd = obsessive compulsive, more pills to take.

they think up a new term for every human condition there is and try to medicate people, thats the problem, pill for this pill for that.

I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT ARTIST RUTH HAS A GENUINE CONCERN, AND IS EDUCATED, AND as for "I TOLD YOU to google" whatever.
who are you to tell people to google bupe for refractory depression,
ruth is concerned because too many people are now medicating themselves instead of actually learning to cope with all of lifes ups and downs, without drugs.
no matter what you say, i am on ruths side.
if you have read all of her previous posts, she is actually a really caring, positive informed person.

[ARTIST658]

Debpurpletiger,

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about drug addiction. I know that you already hold a HUGE resentment toward me for confronting you on another thread about your own drug abuse. At the time, you were listing in your "signature" the entire gamut of narcotic drugs you currently take on a daily basis, while claiming to be "in recovery." I see you have since deleted this information. But, sadly, I'm sure that does not mean that you no longer take the drugs. Your posts have stated otherwise.

I am a drug addict (in recovery!) - and the last thing I want to do is point fingers at another drug addict for their behavior, as I do understand this disease - and what it can lead us to do. It's clear to anyone who takes the time to read through your old posts to see that you continue to use and abuse narcotics, as you have clearly stated, yourself. I do not judge you for it, as I have the same disease.

However, when you post "advice" to others while you, yourself, are under the influence - and that "advice" can be so harmful to another - that's why I'm speaking up, Deb. Your "advice" could easily lead another down a horrendous road, and that isn't right.

I do not appreciate your hostile tone toward me, as if I'm the "enemy" here. I'm very well-educated on addiction, as I work in the field of substance abuse, after years of advanced studies. I have been clean and sober for over 6 years now, having had a relapse with pills in 2003. Prior to that, I'd been clean and sober for over 11 years. I think I know what I'm talking about.

I admit you do know a lot about your drugs! It's clear that much of your studies have been about narcotics, as well - but in the pursuit of more, not in the pursuit of recovery. I see you seeking help for any problem from a pill bottle, as your many posts attest. It takes effort - time, maturity, patience - to find answers to our problems without a drug.

By the way, YES, I do know chronic pain, as well as chronic depression - I've lived with both most of my life. But I've found solutions that do not involve feeding my addiction.

God bless you in your journey, Deb,
Ruth

PS Thank you for your kind words, CheekySod... it touched my heart.

[newyorkgal]

First I have to say, Deb, your post directed at Ruth was totally uncalled for. Or should I say the TONE of the post. Who are you to TELL someone what to do or to suggest they are uneducated because they don't agree with you? It was flat out wrong. I've always read Ruth's posts with great interest. They are always informative, well thought out, interesting, positive and helpful to so many.

Having said that, I am now going to risk the wrath of some posters, especially Ruth who I respect so much. For the first time ever, I have changed my opinion on a topic here, but only on a limited basis. I did do some research on the internet and found several scholarly articles by drs. and phd's about experiments with opiates on depressed patients who are drug resistant when it comes to the tricyclic antidepressants and the newer (don't know what they're called) Prozac type ones as well and it seems they are having some success with those types. I have a relative who has mental illness and when I visited him in hospital I remember a woman who was SO extremely BLUE, it was painful to see. I would NOT advise opiate use for your average run of the mill depressed person. I am one. I have been depressed since I'm a teen. I've been on every antidepressant known to man at one time or another, but none ever worked. I have just learned to live with it, work around it so to speak. I work. I have a family and I manage. However, there are people who can't function at all, can't leave their home or bed. Perhaps there is a place for opiates for a VERY limited number of severly depressed, nonfunctional people who have tried ever other means to combat their illness. It just might give them the chance to work through their depression in the more traditional ways and then get off the meds.

Now, having said THAT, I agree with cheeky and the humorous definitions of all the new mental illnesses. I think it's a crock of shxt that they come up with a name for every single thing that doesn't feel great to us. It's great for the pharmacutical companies, good for doctors, very bad for the rest of us.

Cheeky, those defs. were so good I wrote them down to tell others .

Best wishes to all,
NYG

[cferd]

opiates masked my depression, it did nothing to treat it. It made it worse tenfold in the end. There has been much written on how Bup. can actually cause and/or increase the feelings of depression when used for prolonged periods of time. As we all know,opiates will make your depression fade away during the early stages of addiction. It's just like the 'extra' energy pills provide. Again, only during the early stages. Try and find an opiate user that still gets that energy boost after using for a few years. There is defintely a peak in the effects produced by opiates. Once that feeling good threshold is reached, it quickly turns into a trip deep down the rabbit hole. I highly doubt risking the chance of experiencing PAWS would be welcomed by a person suffering from depression.

[Psychmajor]

before wanting to try one of the hardest withdrawl drugs (possibly behind benzo's but i dunno) i would think about deep brain stimulation or electro shock. my personal experiance (major depression, panic disorder associated with agoraphobia) would say opiates do help with social situations but so did benzo's for me and alc and pretty much anything that worked along the lines of Gaba, stimulents and pain management