[Businessman1]

Thanks Nelly

What is the "Thomas recipe"? Is it something you buy from a supplement shop?

I'm a firm believer in eating healthy to make you feel better and I've never heard of Kashi Vive. I guess I've got some reading to do...

When I came off Vicodin the first time, I did it cold turkey and used Kava (for mood), alka seltzer (for the nausea and aches) and ballerina tea to detox.

I think this time is going to be a lot harder… I’ve been trying to cut out meat etc to help with my post-op pain. Even the strongest narcotics only take the edge off. Who would have thought cutting chunks out of your back would be so painful.

I’m still planning to start my taper process next week. I’ll let you know how I get along. My girlfriend is going to hold all my pills. Even I was surprised at how many I had when I went through all the prescription bottles.

Does anyone know of any non-narcotic pain-killers that actually work? They originally gave me Meloxicam which did nothing for me.

[Robert_325]

Here is the Thomas Recipe. It's a proven method for reducing cold turkey opiate w/d symptoms. Follow it closely and it works. God bless.

http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-...wal-35169.html

[Businessman1]

It says you need Valium. I have a little that they sent me home with from the Hospital. Do doctors normally prescribe it for this purpose though?

I have 8 (5mg) pills of it left - is that enough? I could save them.

Do other muscle relaxants work? I have plenty of the Flexeril left.

Is it just for sleep or does it help in some other way? I also have Ambien left from when I stopped taking Vicodin.

[Robert_325]

Originally Posted by Businessman1

It says you need Valium. I have a little that they sent me home with from the Hospital. Do doctors normally prescribe it for this purpose though?

I have 8 (5mg) pills of it left - is that enough? I could save them.

Do other muscle relaxants work? I have plenty of the Flexeril left.

Is it just for sleep or does it help in some other way? I also have Ambien left from when I stopped taking Vicodin.

The Thomas Recipe only calls for valium for four days. You have enough. Most drs don't even know about the Thomas Recipe. So if you tell the dr you're doing this they won't have any idea what you're talking about most likely. You don't need more valium anyway.

You can take ONE ambien for sleep if you HAVE TO. I wouldn't mess with the flexeril doing the Thomas Recipe with valium and ambien too. This is about stopping drugs. Don't use all that stuff. God bless.

[Businessman1]

Thanks Robert

[Businessman1]

One other question, how much should I reduce my dosage when tapering off the Oxys?

I am currenlty taking 60-80mg per day (not including the hydromorphone which I've only been taking post surgery). More recently closer to 80mg.

At what time intervals should I reduce the dose and by how much?

My doctor gave me Oxycotin 40mg to be taken twice a day this week. I'd only ever taken the instant release before. I feel like I go in withdrawal after 8hours. Is that even possible? I really don't think they last 12 hours....

[melinda7.5]

Hi businessman
I was addicted to oxycontin...I took 40 mg and your right they don't last 12 hr...It is really hard to taper off the oxycotin, the instant release is much easer to do...one 40mg oxycotin is = to 8 5mg oxycodone...
I quit my oxycontin and tapered with oxycodone and vic's...
Sorry I'm not much help...
Melinda

[nelly005]

Hi Businessman,
I've been trying to get some "spring" cleaning done before the weather gets too hot, so I haven't been online in the last couple of days.

You'll find the Kashi Vive in the Health Foods aisle of your grocery.
I had been totally off opiates for 11+ days when I found this website and heard about Thomas Recipe, nutrition, exercise...etc. I knew nutrition and exercise would help but kept putting it off cause I still felt yucky. So on day 12 I started with the nutrition and eliptical (My husband and I started doing Yoga last October so I had the endurance ok). Within 3 - 4 days I started feeling stronger and happier...It took another week before most of my focus returned..

For more info on good nutrition, Google Super-Foods and/or Foods for Immune System, Prohibotics

If you have a health food store with knowledgeable employees they can help.
Make sure you're also getting plenty of Omega 3's, normally you think of fish oil but I hate the taste so I bought Flax Oil Barleans brand, they are soft gels kept in frig and don't give you fishy burps all day. Make sure you also buy some Sleepy-time tea while you're there..you'll need it to sleep during w/ds

How are you feeling? Still in a lot of pain?? As soon as you can start taking a walk even if it's just around the block.

Can you take a long hot bath yet? It helps pain and once you have them, some of your w/d symptoms..aches, restlessness, irritability and insomnia.

When I tapered off Norco I took 1 less every 4 days. ie..8,8,8,8,7,7,7,7,6,6,6,6,etc But I know I couldn't do it myself and it helped that my husband took his car to work each day with my pills in the trunk, it was gone all day so I didn't think about it....as much! But I would listen to Melinda about changing your type of oxys. If your Dr. doesn't agree let him know you've done a lot of research about quitting pain meds and what you have heard, just don't use the word addicted to him...yet. Just that you feel you don't want to be on them long term.

Keep in Touch,
Beth

[Businessman1]

I still have plenty of the instant release oxys left that I'll use to taper and Plenty of hydrocodone 10/325 when they run out.

I was just surprised at how poorly the Oxycotin worked for me. I felt like I'd had too much for the first two-three hours followed by not nearly enough for the following 10 hours. They gave me hydromorphone for what they called "breakthrough" pain. Breakthrough pain = Oxycotin doesn't really last 12hours so here's more opiates to take in between pills.

The annoying thing is that it is increasing the amount of opiates I'm taking just before I plan to stop. If I listen to my doctor, I'll be taking 80mg of Oxy (similar to before) plus at least 20mg of hydromorphone. Basically, they have me taking drugs in my sleep which even I didn't used to do.... Slow release sounds like a stupid idea to me. How much trouble is it really to take a small pill when you need it??? It's also making me sleep 16 hours a day. I just wake up to see my girlfriend leaving and arriving.

My pain is getting a little easier I think - thanks for asking. I plan on walking tomorrow as I'm not supposed to shower until then. I feel too horrible to go out like this. As for hot baths, I live in New York where bath tubs are a little too small to be relaxing

I'm not familiar with all the brand names. Is Norco a hydrocodone pill? 10/325? My hydrocodone pills have "IP110" printed in them.
If so that means you dropped by 10mg/day every 4 days. For me that would mean tapering off the Oxy over approximately 1 month. Does that sound about right? How did you feel at that level? Was it a month of hell or did you hardly notice?

[nelly005]

Yes, Norco is just another form of Vicodin/Hydrocodone. And since I also had methadone for pain along with Norco, I stopped Norco after my last day at 4 pills, total 40mg per day. The way I looked at it anything less than 4 pills was nothing after taking 10 to 12 (100 - 120 mg) per day. Then the final week I only took the methadone and tapered that taking 1 1/2 (15mg) per day down to the last two days of 1/2 (5mg) per day. I hated the methadone it made me sleepy, but I didn't miss the Norco.

I'm hoping that if you get your body strong enough through diet and take your valium the first few days after your taper ends of oxy, you'll do OK! It won't be easy, but the more prepared you are the easier it will be. I was expecting the worse but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I just felt so lazy...so another recomendation to you get everything done before taper ends; bills paid, house clean, laundry done....you won't feel up to it for a couple of weeks.

Since you can't take a bath try a long hot shower then your sleepytime tea.

Were they able to "fix" your back?
Beth

[Businessman1]

I'm not sure yet.

My surgeon told me that the procedure was a sucess. I still have metal staples in my back and am not alllowed to get the cut wet yet. It will be a few weeks before I know for sure but it normally has a 95% success rate so I'm hopefull.

The mix of Valium and hydromorphone has kept me alseep for most of the time. I don't have any "sleepy tea" but I do have some Ambien. As strange as it sounds I'm a little scared of the Ambien. Someone in my office told me she had some and it made her sleepwalk in the night and she ate a whole box of crackers and woke up in a pile of crumbs.. Still I'm sure I'll find something to knock me out.

I'm most worried about the anxiety. I have a stressful job that requires me to make difficult decisions all the time. It's natural for me to feel some anxiety from this. I just need to know which is real and which is from Opiate withdrawal. I think I started taking too many opiates in the first place because it numbed all my anxiety.

How long have you been off now? Is your pain fixed?

[Businessman1]

Sorry just saw you already said 4 weeks and you still have the pain. It's brave of you stop. I'm terrible with pain!

Must be nearly 5 weeks now for you now. Is your husband still keeping a stash for you just in case?

[nelly005]

Actually I'm feeling pretty good now, we have a gal that comes to our house every couple of weeks to give us a massage, I just had mine and she nows working on my husband. I'm not sure why, my better nutrition habits?, but my pain is getting lesser and lesser. I would rather have some pain than the guilt of doing drugs. We have older kids 21, 19 &16 and they know I was in pain and on pain meds. And I told them when I decided to stop and that I wouldn't be myself for a while. They were great, the two oldest go to college in San Diego (we live in Sacramento area) but they called to check on me a lot. It's hard for a parent to preach to their kids about drugs when I had opiates hidden in the safe!
When I planned my taper I made sure I would run out at the end of the taper. I'm pretty weak, I had already tried quitting/tapering twice before, that's why I came clean to my Dr. so she wouldn't give me another Rx. All I have left is a horrible type of long acting morphine, called Avinza, the one time I took it I felt like I was tripping on acid...yuck!

My pain is mostly in my shoulders, elbows, hips, and ankles. Which are easier areas to stretch and exercise.

I had metal staples after a c-section...I was so scared it would hurt when they took them out but I don't think I even felt it! I could only imagine a huge staple remover...like in your desk drawer!! Of course that was 21 years ago so my memory may have faded. haha

Keep in touch, Beth

[methadonfriendly826]

Have any of you ever considered methadone. It worked wonders for me and my addiction. Plus it works for my shoulder pain. and its cheaper. I no longer find myself worrying about getting sick or running out. I dont plan on staying on it for ever but its a better alternative. Seriously you guys should consider it.

[Businessman1]

Hi

We spoke about that a little on the previous page and also Suboxone. The general view was that it was more suited to serious relapsers, Heroin addicts and perhaps people in serious long-term pain with no hope of getting better.

I'm really trying to stop for the first time as I'm expecting my pain to be gone. My preference is to be drug free as Oxys are starting to take over my life a little. I think Beth (Nelly) above has the same preference. I want to avoid taking any pain meds if I'm not in pain.

If I fail in my attempt or my pain doesn't stop as planned then maybe I'll be prepared to try it.

I am more worried about having the strength to stop than running out...

[nelly005]

Hi Businessman,
How's your pain level these days? Is it getting better?
Yesterday I got up, got busy and around noon realized I had forgotten to take my morning tylenol. I couldn't believe I just forgot. I think my brain is really starting to heal and of course thats what I've been afraid wouldn't happen. Last night we went to yoga and I pushed a little too hard so I was sore today, but not bad.
Oh, a couple of days ago I misspelled Probiotics...sorry.

Beth

[Businessman1]

I'm still sore today but maybe getting a little easier. They gave me a new prescription for oxycotin and I had to walk for an hour to find a drugstore that would fill it. There seems to be a shortage in New York for some reason... That walk really hurt me.

Still I'm making some progress and still plan to start my tapering process next week. That's when I'll see if i'm as strong as you. I get my staples out a week tomorrow. Thanks to my op though, i think i'll be starting from a higher dose.

My girlfriend does hot yoga every day. She's been trying to get me to go for ages. maybe I'll try it when I'm a little further along. I'm like the least flexible person in the world!

It's good that you forgot the tylenol, having that every day is hard on your liver and ibuprofen is hard on your stomach. There's no winning!!

I can't wait to get out and get back to the gym. I'm so bored being stuck inside.

Have all your cravings stopped completely now?

[nelly005]

My husband has several back issues, nothing like yours, but a lot of aches and pains. When we started he couldn't touch his toes, but now...no problem. Yoga makes you more flexible, he also has noticed his pains getting better. It takes a while though. My Dr. was able to tell me some of the yoga poses I should alter a bit, planking for less counts, keeping my neck and head in "neural", how to shoulder stack on my side, all to avoid making me worse. The hard part is I'm pretty competitive so I try to not focus on that person next to me who can do it all easily.

Even while you're on all the meds try to take them only when you can't stand the pain, not just because it's time for your next dose. Try to get your brain working on those pain functions again.

I have very few mental cravings now and no physical cravings for weeks (4?, I'm losing track!!) The only mental cravings now is when I'm bored so I try to stay busy and if I do need to rest I read, but something fun, no heavy mental drama. Same with Movies, only comedies or action!

[JamesAshley]

I am in your boat. Respectful at what I do, except for the 400 mg a day oxy requirement. I have to go to Mexico to get it. It is driving me crazy, but the pain is even worse.

[nelly005]

Hi JamesAshley,

What type of pain do you have? What has your doctor said or is this pain from using the oxy? I was given oxy while in Paris a couple of years ago and it didn't do much for my pain at the time but the Dr. had never heard of hydrocodone?! Is 400 mg a lot?? It sounds like it is.
Beth

[Businessman1]

400mg is loads! My doctor told me that 7.5mg of hydrocodone is = to 5mg of Oxycodone. I've not read about anyone on here taking that much....

A lot of doctors in Europe have never heard of Hydrocodone because it is banned in a lot of countries there. I think the exception is Germany where you can get it on it's own (which you can't in the states). I don't really understand the rational for these rules but whatever. I travel a lot and had to get doctors notes just in-case I got stopped at customs when I was on the hydrocodone.

Why do you have to get it from Mexico? I thought it was prescription only there too?

Normally once a drug stops working doctors change you to something else.

Because I'm used to Oxycodone, my surgeon sent me home with Hydromorphone to take after my op. Hydromorphone is meant to be stronger.

I'd talk to your doctor. I'm no expert but it sounds like the Oxy isn't working for you any more and maybe you need something else? What is causing your pain (if you don't mind me asking?)?

[Businessman1]

For the tapering recipe, please can someone help me with the Valium part?

I have 5mg pills to help with my pain that I'm saving for my taper.

The 5mg pills really knock me out. They are making me sleep like 16 hours /day. Is this normal?

How many mg are normally prescribed for someone who has never had Valium before? is 5mg of Valium a lot?

There is no way I am going to be able to use them when I go back to work. I literally can not get out of bed. Could it be the combo of valium and Oxycotin?

[nelly005]

I didn't take the valium, since I hadn't heard of Thomas recipe until I was past that stage. But I do believe the valium is more for a good (decent) night's sleep. The first few days of w/d's sleep is difficult due to RLS (restless leg syndrome) and just plain stress. I don't think 5mgs is a lot?? It probably is the combination of it and oxy. But I would save the valium for when you've hit that point in w/d's when sleep is difficult.
The hot showers before bed along with the sleepy time tea will help sleep so just use the valium in case and if it's still to strong divide it in half.
I believe you are truely starting this off right! Getting your body and brain stronger before tapering and quitting is going to be the key to your success! And will lessen w/d's!!

Beth

[nelly005]

If you've never had RLS (I hadn't until w/d's) it sounds tame, but it really keeps you awake and uncomfortable. You're about ready to finally fall asleep and you feel this almost electrical current flowing through your legs and they start to kick...waking you up. Since this happens every 3-4 minutes sleep is hard to get. I kept waking up my husband kicking and moving so I ended up in the guest room for 4 nights. Save that valium!!

[Businessman1]

I had never heard of restless leg syndrome until I saw the adverts for it on TV. It made me laugh at first but I'm told it's a serious issue for some people. I thought it was just the pharma companies trying to sell new drugs.

I just got a prescription for more Valium so I should have plenty. I like the idea sleeping though W/d. I have 60 5mg pills. My doctor called me to ask if I needed more.

My girlfriend says I never move in my sleep. She snores like a marine - might be her who ends up in the guest room!

[in2deep]

hey businessman1, i am just coming in to day 10 of my codeine wd, i went back to my gp today & she prescribed me more propanolol & valium. Im suppose to take 4mg 3 times a day, i told my doc that i hadnt been taking them as instructed & was instead takin them when i felt the urge to have codeine, i wasnt taking them during day because i had to drive & go to job interviews etc. She said that i shouldnt do that because if i take them only when i would have taken codeine then i will get myself in to the same pattern of behaviour of basically using them to deal with stress or whatever. She said that if i took them exactly as prescribed it should avoid cravings for codeine altogether so thats what im goin to try to do. Whether shes right or not i dont know but i trust her judgement over mine. When i first started taking them they made me really groggy but i seem to have got use to them a bit now & can go about my day almost as normal. Dont know if that helps or not but thought id post anyway : )

[Businessman1]

It does! What is the propanolol for? Not one I've heard of.

I think my issue with being too tired from valium might be the mix of Oxycotin, Hydromorphone, Antibiotics and Valium all at the same time. When I say it like that it sounds like enough stuff to kill a donkey... no wonder I'm tired!

I was told to take the valium "as needed" for muscle spasm. I didn't really know what that meant until I had my op. It hurts! and the valium does help.

I'm hoping when I stop the opiates, the valium will stop knocking me out for the day. It's good to know that your doc told you they would stop the cravings. I hope it does that for me. I've had soooo many opiates over the last week. I wish they'd find a way to make operations not painful!

[Businessman1]

Step 1

I just had a talk with my girlfriend about what I'm going to be doing next week in terms of starting my w/d process and to expect me to not be myself for the next month or so. It was good, she looked relieved. She said she's been really worried about how many pills I've been taking recently, how "reckless" I've been and about my mental state generally. It was good - the first time we've talked properly in months.

While it's a scary prospect for me, it's also scary for her. I want her to read about the process so she can understand what's coming but I don't want her to come to this website. I don't want her to read this thread - I’m sure she would guess it's me. Does anyone know of another web site I can direct her to with accurate and objective information on the subject? Importantly, I'd prefer it not to be a site that lumps tapering off pain meds in with heroin addicts. I would like to avoid scaring her more if possible.

I have not kept my pain meds a secret but looking at the 20+ empty vicodin and oxycodone bottles in my draw, I can see why it might look a little concerning to an observer. She's not angry though, she's also seen first hand how much pain I've been in.

Who's crazy idea was it to place nerves so close to spinal disks???

[nelly005]

Hi Businessman,

After reading your last message I went to google and started typing and reading. I couldn't find anything as good as this forum!!
Two possibilities for you though, first; go to the Suboxone Withdrawl thread and copy any of the related pages you think she could/should see. If drugs.com appears on the bottom or top of page, cut it off. I started out on this thread because a Dr. had told me to research Subs as he thought I should be on it, I didn't agree since I was so far into being clean.
Second; your girlfriend could email me and I could give her my suggestions and she can ask me questions. No worries I won't give any details you've mentioned that could hurt or offend you/her.

Let me know! Oh, and the sub w/d thread is filled with a lot of great people and good insight, you'll be welcomed there too!
Beth

[melinda7.5]

I think you would find everything you need at med help...there is a forum there as well...