[Rastopop]

Thank you for replying. I appreciate it. But, for anybody else who reads this thread, I wanted to make a couple corrections - one of the reasons I wrote this post was to try and clear things up about bupe, both for myself and others, so it's absolutely nothing personal - I just want to get as much Good Info as possible while trying to do away with whatever might be wrong.

Much of what I write here is the combo of things I remember reading, things I've been told, and other miscellaneous sources of info. I want to make it absolutely clear that, aside from having read a few books on the brain, addiction, and similar subjects, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Any confirmations/corrections would be much appreciated.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

1. the reason that bupe is so hard to compare to oxy is because it is a partial agonist, while OC is a full agonist.

If anybody else is reading this thread, could you please confirm this?

Because bupe is a partial agonist, I would expect it to make quitting *easier*. Being a partial agonist/antagonist that binds much more strongly to the receptor than oxy/morphine/etc., it:

1. Only partially activates the mu-opioid receptor.

2. Blocks other opioids from working.

It seems to me that #1 ought to help correct some of the downregulation that results from the constant full-blown agonist properties of traditional opioids of abuse.

I don't know what the actual mechanism is, but it's my understanding that your brain compensates for the unnatural activity caused by opioids by one of several (or a combination of) processes.

I remember reading that you wind up with denser clusters of mu-opioid receptors, and that some of these "extra" receptors don't actually activate anything, so the opioids bind, but nothing happens, and that's one of the reasons you need more and more. This is the result of *full* agonist stimulation.

With a partial-agonist, you aren't stimulating the receptor as much, so I'd imagine the brain doesn't have to compensate so much - it isn't being as stimulated as it is by full-agonist opioids, so that same level of downregulation wouldn't be necessary.

But, I dunno.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

I have heard that 8mg of bupe is equal to about 60mg of methadone. To me, about 40-50mg of methadone gave me about the same effect of 80mg OC. Due to this, I would logically assume, for me, that 8mg of sub (which I am on right now) is equiv. to 100mg OC. That is ballparking it so give or take.

Hm. That's definitely what I was wondering about. Maybe there isn't an easy conversion, but the "I have to take [x]mg of bupe to get the same effect of [x]mg of [opioid type]" is certainly better than nothing.

Another thing I wonder about, though, is whether it's linear. Let's just say for now that 8mg of bupe is equivalent to 45mg of methadone. Would 4mg, then, be the same as roughly 22mg of methadone? I'd love to know if anyone has the answer to this...

Originally Posted by benpharmer

Bupe is potent stuff that has a ceiling effect of about 16mg. Which means that 16mg would fill any receptors your brain could have.

Bupe's ceiling effect kicks in at 32mg, and my shrink says nobody really knows why that is.

Be interesting to find out why...

Originally Posted by benpharmer

Bup will also increase your tolerance to other opiates (such as OC) so going back to OC to stop your habit may be hard, as after a month, you will probably have to take MORE OC to prevent withdrawals (mental mainly) than you were to get high.

Interesting. Another thing I'd love to know is how long after stopping bupe you can take a typical opioid without its effects being blocked.

Bupe has, depending on whether you're a fast/slow metabolizer, a half-life of 37 hours. I'd guess that it takes a *long* time for it to leave your system - especially after regular dosing. The stuff must accumulate, so, when you quit, even if you're only taking 2mg/day, what you actually have in your system could be much, much more.

I bring this up because it might make it *seem* as though your tolerance for traditional opioids may have gone up, but in reality it's just bupe that's lingering... and lingering... and lingering......

Originally Posted by benpharmer

If you can deal with it and discipline yourself then go for it, most have problems in this area.

Think I might. I'll check out the link to the forums you provided to see how it's gone for others.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

Many many people are starting to say that bupe is a beast to recover off of if you are on maintenance.

Again, I wonder how much this has to do with the accumulation of bupe in your system. Quitting from a brief detox ought to have you starting from a far lower quantity of the stuff still in your system. Maybe that's why it's easier.

I'm experimenting with rapidly reducing my dose and dealing with the withdrawal symptoms with Seroquel. Seroquel works really well for me. I take it for going to sleep, but noticed that it did away with anxiety, tearing, and other withdrawal symptoms. Didn't decide until to day to take small doses throughout the day (25mg every few hours or so).

Originally Posted by benpharmer

There are a lot of people who said they did a 12-15day detox and it worked miracles

I told my shrink that that was what I wanted to do, but he used to work in a detox/rehab center, and he said that the people who did the quick detox felt fine at first, but that things eventually got bad, and they went right back to the opioids of abuse.

In his experience, he said that, depending on the habit, a 2-3 month detox is the easiest if detox is your goal. For high-risk addicts - those with a history of relapse - they generally try to get you on a maintenance program.

I'm trusting this shrink, though I'm still making decisions on my own about it this time...

Originally Posted by benpharmer

...but many people on it over a month claim it to be the worst decision of their life.

I absolutely hated the months of side-effects. That was the worst part. But quitting was definitely doable. What I'm trying to figure out is if it'd be easier to switch back to oxy now and then taper.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

By what I gather, long term bupe use leads to about the same withdrawals as methadone, and the same length of withdrawals if not longer. Go to the boards listed above and read peoples reports, there is a sufficient amount of data gathered from people to make your decision.

I had strong withdrawal symptoms for two weeks, followed by another two weeks of mild symptoms. I don't know how that compares to methadone. I just know that I'd like to get over it much more quickly this time... I miss my brain.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

If you are recovering from OC, and are serious about doing it, I would accept the fact that suffering is gonna happen in some form. Its the nature of the beast. There is no easy way.

Total agreement. I will say that, perhaps because I've done it before, I'm not as afraid of the pain this time. As you say, there will always be pain.

What would be wonderful... would be if the docs *knew* what they were doing and *knew* what the quickest, least painful route to Clean is.

I see the value in bupe, though. It breaks the cycle for me - the ritual of oxy. I *love* crushing, separating, swallowing, snorting, blah blah blah... that was half the fun. Doing away with that also does away with the ritual.

Just thought about that right now. Maybe that's one of the great benefits of bupe. I guess there's always a trade-off.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

There is a quick way...stay off the sub or methadone. Since your on the sub, it might be wise to taper down to 2mg or less quickly, hang there for a couple of days, cut your losses and go "clean".

Down to 2mg today. Gonna see if I can hold it there.

To get down to 3mg/day, I did 3mg/day for a few days, and took a little extra "booster" when I started to feel bad. That extra bit smoothed things out for a few days, and I think that's how I managed to cut down to 3mg/day fairly quickly.

I'm scared, though, you know? This stuff is scary.

Also optimistic. Hoping that overrides the fear.

Originally Posted by benpharmer

Either way, good luck. I am personally trying to quit MMT using sub. I am on a <1 month taper from sub, but methadone changes the rules.

Good luck to you, too.

Thanks very much for responding. I know things are different with methadone, and that I won't be able to do a 1:1 comparison between your experience and mine, but I hope that you write about your experience here.