Hi, all -
On my second bupe treatment. I used it in 06-07 to quit a 2-300mg/day oxy habit. Started on 20mg/day and tapered off over 7 months. It took much longer than I would have liked, but my shrink and I had different goals. He wanted to keep me on it forever (maintenance), and I'd rather die than stay on it.
Fell off the wagon a few months after. More accurately, I took a wild, running leap off the wagon. Not much falling involved.
Didn't get too bad - 60mg/day. But wanted to stop it before it got any worse, especially since I hated the high. It reminded me of the worst time of my life. But, as anybody who's ever had an addiction knows, there's nothing rational about it. You can hate it and think it's evil, but still be drawn to it. It's not intellectual - it's an appetite, and you can't reason with an appetite.
Because of the first addiction, I was terrified of trying to taper off the oxy. There are people out there who would tell me I was better off trying to taper off the oxy rather than switching to bupe, but everybody's different. I'm hypersensitive to this stuff, and I found bupe a much more comfortable taper, though I HATE the side-effects. And the effects themselves, I suppose.
I chose bupe again because I figured I would have a far easier time of it since my addiction was smaller, and that seems to be the case. Rather than starting off at 20mg/day, I started off at 8mg/day, and decided it was too much. I was nodding and puking. It was actually a great high, but totally counterproductive. I simultaneously loved and hated the high.
Bumped myself down to 6mg/day. Told shrink. He wanted me on 8, but I don't want to be high all the time.
Decided 6mg/day was too much, as I still felt high and was still puking a lot.
Bumped down to 4mg/day, and started to feel better. The taper from 8mg/day to 4mg/day took about two weeks. I've been on the stuff for about a month now, and I'm down to 3mg/day, and still trying to aggressively taper, accepting a bit of sweating and tearing in exchange for a faster detox.
So... the confusion.
I've read so much stuff about bupe that I'm having a hard time figuring out what's real and what's bogus. I've read things that are so completely stupid that I can dismiss them out of hand, but there are other things that aren't so obviously right or wrong.
Here's some of the stuff that's confusing me:
1. Bupe vs. oxy/morphine - Potency
My shrink keeps telling me that determining relative potencies is all but impossible with bupe vs. oxy.
This makes no sense to me, and I suspect that thinking comes from the bupe protocols docs are supposed to follow. For example, regardless of the size of your habit, the protocol apparently calls for induction at 8mg/day (at least).
I think thats nuts. I'd much rather have started at 2mg/day. If I got uncomfortable, I'd add 2mg every hour or so until I felt better, hopefully finding a sweet spot along the way that worked for me.
That is, I want to start at the lowest possible dose - not follow some one-size-fits-all 8mg/day starting protocol.
What I want to know - and what I think a lot of people want to know - is if there's a way to compare potency of, say, bupe vs. oxy. How much bupe is equivalent to how much oxy?
If I feel comfortable at 3mg/day of bupe, is that possibly, then, roughly equivalent to 60mg/day of oxy (the size of my habit)?
I realize it's difficult since the potency of bupe doesn't *feel* like it's linear. I mean, it doesn't *feel* like 8mg is only twice as powerful as 4mg (or whatever).
But, still... isn't there at least an approximation out there? There *must* be - there *is* an amount that would, once reached, cut withdrawals for the person depending on the size of their habit. But it'd be tough to figure this out if everybody's getting started at 8mg/day+.
I read a post by someone else who wrote that bupe is 40x more potent than
morphine. I think that's just garbage. If it were 40x more powerful, 8mg would have killed me. Or at least knocked me out cold.
I think he got the potency confused with the affinity bupe has for the mu-opioid receptor, which is, from what I've read, about 50x that of morphine. But that has nothing at all to do with the *potency* of the drug.
So... does anybody have an answer for this? *Is* there a conversion chart? I couldn't find one. Nothing even remotely close.
The next thing...
2. Bupe is *way* harder to quit than oxy.
When I quit bupe the first time, I was in withdrawals for about a month, but only the first couple weeks were really difficult. Even then, the symptoms were totally manageable with benzos. That's not to say it was fun - I had an extremely difficult time sleeping. My doc gave me
Seroquel, and the stuff pretty well knocked me out, but I was still aware of discomfort as I slept.
I had a feeling in my legs each night that made it feel like I *had* to run - for miles, and miles, and miles, and miles... stretching helped, but didn't solve it.
I did a lot of sweating. Tons. That sucked.
I was nervous, which is to be expected.
Had some depression - also to be expected.
But, like I said, it was only the first couple weeks that really troubled me.
However... *IF* bupe *is* harder to quit than oxy, then I'd rather switch back to oxy and taper off from that stuff instead. One of the nice things about short-acting opioids is that I don't have to feel the effects of an opioid all night and day. I hate this feeling - like I can't get away from the light high I get.
So... is it *really* harder to quit? Would any of you recommend that I switch back to oxy to quit? And don't worry about addiction - I'm *not* going back - I just want to end as comfortably as possible. I've made my decision, and I'm going to quit for good, and that's *that*.
It seems to me that it's possible that the people who think bupe is really hard to quit is that they didn't taper properly. I've read about people who went from, say, 1mg/day to nothing, and they had horrible, painful withdrawals.
I was cutting my 2mg subs into 1/8ths. Doing so, I was able to taper all the way down to .25mg/day.
I think this might be why my withdrawals weren't a total nightmare.
I don't think these people are aware of just how big a difference there is between 2mg of bupe and 1mg. When you go from 2 to 1, you're cutting your dose in half. That's obvious. But I've read things like, "I tried to quit and I was *only* taking 1mg/day, and it was bad, blah blah blah..."
Whatever the relative potencies are, it's obvious that bupe is much stronger, mg for mg, than oxy. It's like going from 20mg of oxy to 10mg. It's a *big* difference.
So... is it likely that these people had a hard time because they didn't "get" just how big a difference a 1mg shift in either direction is with bupe?
I want to quit, but if I can do so in more comfort with oxys than with bupe, then... well, I'd really like to know, and to get some clearer answers/info.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. I appreciate it. I know it was long, so I also thank you for your patience. I just try to be as clear as possible about these things, and that can translate to longer posts.